4 ms·

Pet peeve: "Xian" is an entirely different thing from "Xi'an", which is the correct orthography for the city referred to in the article. https://en.wikipedia.o

• thaumasiotes 11y ago
  The chinese don't worry too much about pinyin. Arguably the "correct" orthography would be 西安. How do you feel about 陕西?
  • amake 11y ago
    What the Chinese think about pinyin is not relevant, nor is Chinese-language orthography. We are clearly communicating in English, and in English the correct orthography for the city in question is "Xi'an". This is important because "Xian" is an entirely unrelated, distinct syllable.
    • lmm 11y ago
      Language is a tool for communication. In English "Xian" unambiguously refers to the city in question (e.g. searching for it will take you to the correct page), unless you're saying there's some other "Xian" it would be confused with? (English orthography has always been ambiguous; accents are conventionally optional in English even when their absence is misleading regarding pronunciation, e.g. "cafe")
      • Symbiote 11y ago
        There's a Xian County [1]. I don't think anyone would accept "Newyork", even though a Google search goes to the correct place ­— hardly a good measure of ambiguity. The pronunciation is different, so it could be confused with "Newark" with some accents. English has enough ambiguity without introducing more, especially from carelessness or laziness. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_County https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_County
        • lmm 11y ago
          Spaces are much less optional than accents. Very few object to "Montreal" or "San Jose" (indeed those have become the accepted English spellings at this point).
          • germanier 11y ago
            To add a counterpoint: The German cities Münster and Munster are distinct. Just leaving the diacritics away confuses everybody (the correct way of spelling the former when there is no "ü" available is Muenster).
          • GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
            An apostrophe is not an "accent".
            • lmm 11y ago
              The "'" in "Xi'an" is not an English apostrophe (it doesn't indicate an omitted letter or a possessive); it's an accent-like diacritic.
              • thaumasiotes 11y ago
                Technically it's not a diacritic, either; it doesn't attach to any letter. It's a syllable boundary, like the hyphens in Wade-Giles transcription ("Hsi-an" or "Tse-tung").
      • amake 11y ago
        > In English "Xian" unambiguously refers to the city in question That's just the thing: It does not.
        • brent_maxwell 11y ago
          It was pretty unambiguous to me.
          • amake 11y ago
            That is because you happen to be ignorant of all but the most notable thing that could be either "xi'an" or "xian". Others are not limited by the extent of your knowledge.
            • thaumasiotes 11y ago
              Virtually 100% of English speakers are (in fact, I'd go so far as to say nearly 100% of english speakers are ignorant of all the notable things that might be xian or xi'an). Of the remainder, none will be confused (your worry is ambiguity, right?) by the sort of reference we see here. I asked your opinion of 陕西 for a reason.
    • kps 11y ago
      > in English the correct orthography for the city in question is "Xi'an" Why? In English orthography, initial ‘x’ is /z/ an an apostrophe marks omission in a contraction. Neither seems to be the case here.
      • amake 11y ago
        Because in Chinese morphology "xi'an" is two distinct syllables, while "xian" is a single syllable. In Hanyu Pinyin (the modern Chinese transliteration standard) this distinction is made with an apostrophe. What English "usually" does with the apostrophe is irrelevant. "Xi'an" and "xian" must be able to be distinguished in English because they refer to separate things. If you have a problem with using an apostrophe for this, take it up with the standards body that decided on Hanyu Pinyin.
        • thaumasiotes 11y ago
          > "Xi'an" and "xian" must be able to be distinguished in English because they refer to separate things. What ridiculous nonsense. You mean like how Michael Jackson and Michael Jackson must be able to be distinguished in English because they refer to separate things? Oh, whoops. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Walk_of_Fame#Names_in_common https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Walk_of_Fame#Names_i... Maybe you mean how Springfield and Springfield must be able to be distinguished in English because they refer to separate things. Maybe you mean that English must distinguish between strings of one syllable and strings of two. Unfortunately for you, that's still nonsense. Consider this variation on a classic example sentence: "I spent the evening evening out a ripple in the rug."
        • kps 11y ago
          Well, OK; my question was based on your “pinyin is not relevant”; if it's pinyin or pseudo-pinyin then it has its own rules, just like any other non-English language that uses roman letters, and English orthography is irrelevant. Then writing ‘Xi'an’ is just an affectation like writing ‘Roma’ and ‘Wien’ in place of ‘Rome’ and ‘Vienna’.
          • 11y ago