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Public transportation sucks and is terrible. Yes even in big European cities. It's asking for a faster horse. Any planning not built around self driving cars is

Public transportation sucks and is terrible. Yes even in big European cities. It's asking for a faster horse. Any planning not built around self driving cars is dumb and behind the curve.

lukeqsee 11y ago
Perhaps the first is true, but I think (and believe I could substantiate) that traffic sucks a lot worse: for instance, I can read/zone-out/listen to a podcast on public transit; if I do those things in traffic, I meet the back of the car in front of me.
- forrestthewoods 11y ago
  Riding a faster horse is better than riding a slow horse. That doesn't mean it's good or what should be pursued.
  - jacobolus 11y ago
    You know what’s better than any of these? Having people live near where they work, so they can walk or ride a bike to commute. But for larger areas and longer trips, roads hit a hard limit after a certain point. Car traffic in denser urban areas around the world inevitably turns into a quagmire. Self-driving cars aren’t going to fix that, and they have nowhere near the passenger capacity of a subway line. “A subway track can carry 20,000 people per hour, some like in Tokyo carry up to 80,000 people per hour. A freeway lane carries about 2,000-2,500 people per hour.” http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/07/myths-of-oppressed-motorist-freeways.html http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/07/myths-of-oppressed-m... I’ll agree with you that buses can be terrible though, especially enormous heavy slow buses that run mostly empty half the time and stop every block or two. Ideally bus lines would switch to smaller vehicles at non-peak times, and during commute hours cities would work harder to get them dedicated lanes so they wouldn’t get stuck in car traffic. One awesome transit option in Hong Kong is the giant escalator. I’m not sure it would work in lower-density cities, but in my opinion it’s much nicer than closed vehicles of any kind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central–Mid-Levels_escalator_and_walkway_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central–Mid-Levels_escalator_a...
zurn 11y ago
Public transport is going to be largely built on self-driving cars if/when they enter the market. It's the perfect fit: a) Personnel costs dominate human-driven PT cars b) huge vehicles because of a) c) vechicles are on average mostly empty because of b) d) the average co2 emissions per passenger-km are terrible because of c) e) routes and schedules are fixed because of b) f) big vehicles waste much more time on stops (50 passengers -> worst case 100 stops) The self-driving PT sevice may look like ride sharing airport shuttles with more or less dynamic routing and pricing. Someone should set up a remotely operated offering based on this, to get a head start before the AI gets good enough. You can tell the investors you'll gamify it to make it more sexy :) Here's a clever large scale pilot project that comes very close, though with human drivers: http://www.zdnet.com/article/death-of-the-car-the-tech-behind-helsinkis-ambitious-plan-to-kill-off-private-vehicles/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/death-of-the-car-the-tech-behin...
- pakled_engineer 11y ago
  We have electric/trolley buses here for most routes, and a computer run train system without any operators, and some buses have their own lanes on busy routes but it still sucks. Largely this is due to the buffoons who are consistently appointed to transit boards who tender everything to fellow political cronies that drain the budget and accomplish nothing. Transit like traffic is a political problem but running it is considered a patronage position where the CEO and board make over $300k/yr for never showing up to work and get a car allowance so they never have to experience the terrible service they run.
  - stuaxo 11y ago
    Yep - I strongly believe that people in charge of these systems should have to use them to get to work. Especially people running the trains in the UK.
  - zurn 11y ago
    I agree that corruption can hurt public transit, but I'm not sure it's closely related to driverless cars in PT...?
culturestate 11y ago
This opinion is (I believe) largely a function of one's worldview: if you grew up and live in a place designed for cars, you will probably find public transit systems inefficient. Why shouldn't I be able to get in a thing at my door and out of a thing at my destination door, without all this walking and standing nonsense? If you grew up in e.g. Hong Kong, though, you'd likely see public transit as an arterial system designed to get you from one walkable neighborhood to another. I want to be able to walk around my neighborhood without dodging cars, even pedestrian-aware self-driving ones. The failure of public transit in many contexts is really in foundational civil planning, not the nature of transit itself.
- forrestthewoods 11y ago
  No. It's shit. It's always been shit. And it will always be shit. New York City has the longest commute times in the entire country. I've had friends who grew up ther and upon leaving literally said, "oh so this is what it's like to be alive. I thought all people did was work, commute, and sleep." Walking to a bus stop sucks. Waiting for the next train sucks. Inevitably missing your transport or connection sucks. Listening to podcasts is cool so it's not the end of the world though. People who live off public transportation live in tiny bubbles. A square mile here and a square mile there. Like you said, moving from one all walkneighborhood to another. God help you if you want more than one of ~five neighborhoods. And if you want to go see nature? Hah. sure you could rent a car or use a zip car but that's a huge hassle and people rarely do. Assuming you even have a drivers license which, much to my surprise, many folks are starting to skip. You aren't wrong that it's a function of worldview. Perhaps one view is right or perhaps both are.
  - wibr 11y ago
    Well sitting in a traffic jam also sucks? In my opinion even more because you are literally stuck, you can't just choose another connection, go somewhere else to have a coffee, you are trapped in your car on some road and there is nothing you can do except wait and try to ask the navigation system for better routes. I don't think driverless car will fix any congestion problems in the city. Instead there might be even more cars: Elderly, children, deliveries, pets, driving billboards and vending machines, everyone can go anywhere on their own!
csydas 11y ago
A focus on moving more people to public transportation is the first step in getting people to let go of their cars to allow for self-driving cars. When you mix self-driving cars and regular person-driven cars, the danger becomes the drivers. A major cultural change within Western countries with heavy reliance on cars is going to have to happen before self-driving cars can be part of the majority. The overall rejection of public transit is an aspect of this.
- forrestthewoods 11y ago
  Seattle wants to spend $15,000,000,000 (billion) on light rail. That is not a mandatory intermediate between cars and self driving cars. In fact I'd wager self driving cars will be in full force before the construction of that 15 billion dollar project is complete. Knowing Seattle maybe even before the plan is finalized, hah.
Piskvorrr 11y ago
Living and travelling in big European cities (London,Paris,Vienna,Munich,Prague,Dusseldorf,Dresden,Linz,Bratislava), I strongly disagree. Commute times are mostly in favor of public transport (especially where separated from individual traffic, e.g. the underground), even with transfers: cars are gridlocked, trains move (and in most cases, they move on time). Oh, but there's all those pesky people in public transit - well, that's what distinguishes a city from living out in the woods, no?

Public transportation sucks and is terrible. Yes even in big European cities. It's asking for a faster horse. Any planning not built around self driving cars is dumb and behind the curve.

lukeqsee 11y ago

Perhaps the first is true, but I think (and believe I could substantiate) that traffic sucks a lot worse: for instance, I can read/zone-out/listen to a podcast on public transit; if I do those things in traffic, I meet the back of the car in front of me.

forrestthewoods 11y ago
Riding a faster horse is better than riding a slow horse. That doesn't mean it's good or what should be pursued.
- jacobolus 11y ago
  You know what’s better than any of these? Having people live near where they work, so they can walk or ride a bike to commute. But for larger areas and longer trips, roads hit a hard limit after a certain point. Car traffic in denser urban areas around the world inevitably turns into a quagmire. Self-driving cars aren’t going to fix that, and they have nowhere near the passenger capacity of a subway line. “A subway track can carry 20,000 people per hour, some like in Tokyo carry up to 80,000 people per hour. A freeway lane carries about 2,000-2,500 people per hour.” http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/07/myths-of-oppressed-motorist-freeways.html http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/07/myths-of-oppressed-m... I’ll agree with you that buses can be terrible though, especially enormous heavy slow buses that run mostly empty half the time and stop every block or two. Ideally bus lines would switch to smaller vehicles at non-peak times, and during commute hours cities would work harder to get them dedicated lanes so they wouldn’t get stuck in car traffic. One awesome transit option in Hong Kong is the giant escalator. I’m not sure it would work in lower-density cities, but in my opinion it’s much nicer than closed vehicles of any kind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central–Mid-Levels_escalator_and_walkway_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central–Mid-Levels_escalator_a...

zurn 11y ago

Public transport is going to be largely built on self-driving cars if/when they enter the market. It's the perfect fit: a) Personnel costs dominate human-driven PT cars b) huge vehicles because of a) c) vechicles are on average mostly empty because of b) d) the average co2 emissions per passenger-km are terrible because of c) e) routes and schedules are fixed because of b) f) big vehicles waste much more time on stops (50 passengers -> worst case 100 stops) The self-driving PT sevice may look like ride sharing airport shuttles with more or less dynamic routing and pricing. Someone should set up a remotely operated offering based on this, to get a head start before the AI gets good enough. You can tell the investors you'll gamify it to make it more sexy :) Here's a clever large scale pilot project that comes very close, though with human drivers: http://www.zdnet.com/article/death-of-the-car-the-tech-behind-helsinkis-ambitious-plan-to-kill-off-private-vehicles/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/death-of-the-car-the-tech-behin...

pakled_engineer 11y ago
We have electric/trolley buses here for most routes, and a computer run train system without any operators, and some buses have their own lanes on busy routes but it still sucks. Largely this is due to the buffoons who are consistently appointed to transit boards who tender everything to fellow political cronies that drain the budget and accomplish nothing. Transit like traffic is a political problem but running it is considered a patronage position where the CEO and board make over $300k/yr for never showing up to work and get a car allowance so they never have to experience the terrible service they run.
- stuaxo 11y ago
  Yep - I strongly believe that people in charge of these systems should have to use them to get to work. Especially people running the trains in the UK.
- zurn 11y ago
  I agree that corruption can hurt public transit, but I'm not sure it's closely related to driverless cars in PT...?

culturestate 11y ago

This opinion is (I believe) largely a function of one's worldview: if you grew up and live in a place designed for cars, you will probably find public transit systems inefficient. Why shouldn't I be able to get in a thing at my door and out of a thing at my destination door, without all this walking and standing nonsense? If you grew up in e.g. Hong Kong, though, you'd likely see public transit as an arterial system designed to get you from one walkable neighborhood to another. I want to be able to walk around my neighborhood without dodging cars, even pedestrian-aware self-driving ones. The failure of public transit in many contexts is really in foundational civil planning, not the nature of transit itself.

forrestthewoods 11y ago
No. It's shit. It's always been shit. And it will always be shit. New York City has the longest commute times in the entire country. I've had friends who grew up ther and upon leaving literally said, "oh so this is what it's like to be alive. I thought all people did was work, commute, and sleep." Walking to a bus stop sucks. Waiting for the next train sucks. Inevitably missing your transport or connection sucks. Listening to podcasts is cool so it's not the end of the world though. People who live off public transportation live in tiny bubbles. A square mile here and a square mile there. Like you said, moving from one all walkneighborhood to another. God help you if you want more than one of ~five neighborhoods. And if you want to go see nature? Hah. sure you could rent a car or use a zip car but that's a huge hassle and people rarely do. Assuming you even have a drivers license which, much to my surprise, many folks are starting to skip. You aren't wrong that it's a function of worldview. Perhaps one view is right or perhaps both are.
- wibr 11y ago
  Well sitting in a traffic jam also sucks? In my opinion even more because you are literally stuck, you can't just choose another connection, go somewhere else to have a coffee, you are trapped in your car on some road and there is nothing you can do except wait and try to ask the navigation system for better routes. I don't think driverless car will fix any congestion problems in the city. Instead there might be even more cars: Elderly, children, deliveries, pets, driving billboards and vending machines, everyone can go anywhere on their own!

csydas 11y ago

A focus on moving more people to public transportation is the first step in getting people to let go of their cars to allow for self-driving cars. When you mix self-driving cars and regular person-driven cars, the danger becomes the drivers. A major cultural change within Western countries with heavy reliance on cars is going to have to happen before self-driving cars can be part of the majority. The overall rejection of public transit is an aspect of this.

forrestthewoods 11y ago
Seattle wants to spend $15,000,000,000 (billion) on light rail. That is not a mandatory intermediate between cars and self driving cars. In fact I'd wager self driving cars will be in full force before the construction of that 15 billion dollar project is complete. Knowing Seattle maybe even before the plan is finalized, hah.

Piskvorrr 11y ago

Living and travelling in big European cities (London,Paris,Vienna,Munich,Prague,Dusseldorf,Dresden,Linz,Bratislava), I strongly disagree. Commute times are mostly in favor of public transport (especially where separated from individual traffic, e.g. the underground), even with transfers: cars are gridlocked, trains move (and in most cases, they move on time). Oh, but there's all those pesky people in public transit - well, that's what distinguishes a city from living out in the woods, no?