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... or worse, "I'm sorry if you were offended".

ghaff 11y ago
I'm not sure this is always a bad thing. No, I don't go out of my way to cause offense. However, I've certainly said or written things that caused individuals and even groups of individuals to be pissed off in ways that I consider irrational. (And in ways many others would consider to be irrational as well.) Under those circumstances, if pressed, I might use that sort of formulation. Except under extreme duress, I'm not going to apologize for something I'm really not sorry about.
- mikeash 11y ago
  How about "I'm sorry I offended you"? It's the same basic statement, except it places you as the active party, rather than putting the onus on the person you're apologizing to.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    Except, under those circumstances, I'm probably not losing any sleep over the fact that I offended you. So that statement means I'm shouldering the blame at some level but it's also typically dishonest. I'm not actually sorry I offended you because I think you're being an oversensitive idiot.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      Then don't apologize. If you're not actually sorry, don't say you are. Edit: it occurs to me that this hooks straight back in to the article's question. Why are most public apologies so bad? Because most of them are made by people who aren't actually sorry.
      - ghaff 11y ago
        Which is a reasonable approach--although it may or may not be the best one from a PR perspective.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    But how to say in a polite and effective way, "you're behaving irrationally, the offence is something you created for yourself; I feel bad that you're feeling bad now, but I did nothing I should be apologizing for"? I sometimes find myself tempted to use a non-apology like "I'm sorry if I offended you" in order to short-circuit the irrational anger in the other person quickly, so that we can get to the point of actually figuring out what I've said that triggered the problem and how their reaction was wrong, and what's the deeper issue underneath.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      "I'm sorry I offended you" is a perfectly reasonable way to express "I feel bad that you're feeling bad now." I personally don't understand why you'd feel bad about how another person feels as a result of something you've said, but not feel that you should apologize. To me, the two go hand in hand. It's not about "should," it's not about right and wrong, it's simply about expressing the sentiment that you regret what happened as a result of your actions. Even if you said something totally innocent like "I like apples" and somebody got offended at that because they're crazy, you can still sincerely apologize for that if you actually care that they feel bad. And of course you don't have to care that they feel bad. In many cases not caring would be a perfectly reasonable response. In which case, don't lie by saying sorry.
      - TeMPOraL 11y ago
        > "I'm sorry I offended you" is a perfectly reasonable way to express "I feel bad that you're feeling bad now." Thank you. The whole subthread confused me mostly about how the word "sorry" in English works. > it's not about right and wrong, it's simply about expressing the sentiment that you regret what happened as a result of your actions. Yes, exactly this.
        mikeash 11y ago
        Well, I think a lot of English speakers are confused as well. There seems to be this idea that "I'm sorry" implicitly means, "I fucked up, it's all my fault, I'm a worm, I deserve to die," and so forth. But it's really just, "I wish it wasn't so, and I'd do it differently if I could go back and try again," or something along those lines.
- deleted 11y ago
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- masterzora 11y ago
  It doesn't sound like you're actually sorry that they were offended in these circumstances, either, so "I'm sorry if you were offended" is still apologising for something you're not really sorry about, and poorly at that. Leaving aside the question of whether you should be sorry since that's too situational to discuss in generalities, if you're going to pretend you might as well pretend well, I'd say.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    I don't know how people interpret the word "sorry" here, but for me "I'm sorry" means I feel bad about something and I don't want to do it again. Therefore I can honestly say "I'm sorry you're offended", or "I'm sorry if I offended you", by which I mean "if you were offended by what I said then I feel bad about you experiencing negative emotions; I don't want to say things that make you feel bad; but that doesn't change the fact that your outrage is ridiculous and completely irrational and totally your fault, so calm the fuck down for five seconds and let us resolve it". I am sorry for how they feel. I am not sorry for what I said.
    - masterzora 11y ago
      There's a lot going on here and it's hard to properly talk about it all at once so I'm going to try to discuss some pieces and hope I don't lose an aggregate meaning in the process. I see a few key points in what you said that I want to respond to in particular. > I am sorry for how they feel. I am not sorry for what I said. You don't have to be sorry for what you said to be sorry for offending or hurting the person. You can stand by what you said entirely while still being sorry that what you said hurt them. Saying "I'm sorry I said something that offended you" doesn't mean you're retracting your words but it does mean that you are saddened for having caused the other party pain, even if you don't think their pain is rational. > but that doesn't change the fact that your outrage is [...] totally your fault If you're concerned about "fault" in this case, I'm not really convinced you do feel bad. "I'm sorry I said something that offended you" isn't "I'm a terrible person who is totally in the wrong"; it's "I regret that I did something that resulted in you being hurt." If you stand entirely by what you said it might even mean something like "I wish it were possible to go back and time and restate that in a way that would achieve what I intended without hurting you." > "I'm sorry" means I feel bad about something and I don't want to do it again Ultimately, I think this is what it's all about. "I'm sorry you were offended" is (at its absolute best) "I feel bad about you being offended"; "I'm sorry I offended you" is "I feel bad about you being offended and I don't want to do it again."
- kibwen 11y ago
  > I'm not going to apologize for something I'm really not > sorry about. In this circumstance, it may be better not to apologize at all. "I'm not sorry" is at least sincere, relative to the typical nose-thumbing pseudo-apologies.

ghaff 11y ago

I'm not sure this is always a bad thing. No, I don't go out of my way to cause offense. However, I've certainly said or written things that caused individuals and even groups of individuals to be pissed off in ways that I consider irrational. (And in ways many others would consider to be irrational as well.) Under those circumstances, if pressed, I might use that sort of formulation. Except under extreme duress, I'm not going to apologize for something I'm really not sorry about.

mikeash 11y ago
How about "I'm sorry I offended you"? It's the same basic statement, except it places you as the active party, rather than putting the onus on the person you're apologizing to.
- ghaff 11y ago
  Except, under those circumstances, I'm probably not losing any sleep over the fact that I offended you. So that statement means I'm shouldering the blame at some level but it's also typically dishonest. I'm not actually sorry I offended you because I think you're being an oversensitive idiot.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Then don't apologize. If you're not actually sorry, don't say you are. Edit: it occurs to me that this hooks straight back in to the article's question. Why are most public apologies so bad? Because most of them are made by people who aren't actually sorry.
    - ghaff 11y ago
      Which is a reasonable approach--although it may or may not be the best one from a PR perspective.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  But how to say in a polite and effective way, "you're behaving irrationally, the offence is something you created for yourself; I feel bad that you're feeling bad now, but I did nothing I should be apologizing for"? I sometimes find myself tempted to use a non-apology like "I'm sorry if I offended you" in order to short-circuit the irrational anger in the other person quickly, so that we can get to the point of actually figuring out what I've said that triggered the problem and how their reaction was wrong, and what's the deeper issue underneath.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    "I'm sorry I offended you" is a perfectly reasonable way to express "I feel bad that you're feeling bad now." I personally don't understand why you'd feel bad about how another person feels as a result of something you've said, but not feel that you should apologize. To me, the two go hand in hand. It's not about "should," it's not about right and wrong, it's simply about expressing the sentiment that you regret what happened as a result of your actions. Even if you said something totally innocent like "I like apples" and somebody got offended at that because they're crazy, you can still sincerely apologize for that if you actually care that they feel bad. And of course you don't have to care that they feel bad. In many cases not caring would be a perfectly reasonable response. In which case, don't lie by saying sorry.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      > "I'm sorry I offended you" is a perfectly reasonable way to express "I feel bad that you're feeling bad now." Thank you. The whole subthread confused me mostly about how the word "sorry" in English works. > it's not about right and wrong, it's simply about expressing the sentiment that you regret what happened as a result of your actions. Yes, exactly this.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        Well, I think a lot of English speakers are confused as well. There seems to be this idea that "I'm sorry" implicitly means, "I fucked up, it's all my fault, I'm a worm, I deserve to die," and so forth. But it's really just, "I wish it wasn't so, and I'd do it differently if I could go back and try again," or something along those lines.
deleted 11y ago
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masterzora 11y ago
It doesn't sound like you're actually sorry that they were offended in these circumstances, either, so "I'm sorry if you were offended" is still apologising for something you're not really sorry about, and poorly at that. Leaving aside the question of whether you should be sorry since that's too situational to discuss in generalities, if you're going to pretend you might as well pretend well, I'd say.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  I don't know how people interpret the word "sorry" here, but for me "I'm sorry" means I feel bad about something and I don't want to do it again. Therefore I can honestly say "I'm sorry you're offended", or "I'm sorry if I offended you", by which I mean "if you were offended by what I said then I feel bad about you experiencing negative emotions; I don't want to say things that make you feel bad; but that doesn't change the fact that your outrage is ridiculous and completely irrational and totally your fault, so calm the fuck down for five seconds and let us resolve it". I am sorry for how they feel. I am not sorry for what I said.
  - masterzora 11y ago
    There's a lot going on here and it's hard to properly talk about it all at once so I'm going to try to discuss some pieces and hope I don't lose an aggregate meaning in the process. I see a few key points in what you said that I want to respond to in particular. > I am sorry for how they feel. I am not sorry for what I said. You don't have to be sorry for what you said to be sorry for offending or hurting the person. You can stand by what you said entirely while still being sorry that what you said hurt them. Saying "I'm sorry I said something that offended you" doesn't mean you're retracting your words but it does mean that you are saddened for having caused the other party pain, even if you don't think their pain is rational. > but that doesn't change the fact that your outrage is [...] totally your fault If you're concerned about "fault" in this case, I'm not really convinced you do feel bad. "I'm sorry I said something that offended you" isn't "I'm a terrible person who is totally in the wrong"; it's "I regret that I did something that resulted in you being hurt." If you stand entirely by what you said it might even mean something like "I wish it were possible to go back and time and restate that in a way that would achieve what I intended without hurting you." > "I'm sorry" means I feel bad about something and I don't want to do it again Ultimately, I think this is what it's all about. "I'm sorry you were offended" is (at its absolute best) "I feel bad about you being offended"; "I'm sorry I offended you" is "I feel bad about you being offended and I don't want to do it again."
kibwen 11y ago
> I'm not going to apologize for something I'm really not > sorry about. In this circumstance, it may be better not to apologize at all. "I'm not sorry" is at least sincere, relative to the typical nose-thumbing pseudo-apologies.