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What I've started to realize about people is that you can't influence them all with deterrents. No matter how long the sentence, or how permanent the memory of

What I've started to realize about people is that you can't influence them all with deterrents. No matter how long the sentence, or how permanent the memory of the justice system (8 months in prison for robbery, 50 years later), none of that is bad enough to actually stop people committing crimes in the first place. Essentially, people aren't rational. They don't act in their own self interests. I saw this also when I was a teacher. No amount of detentions or removal from class would change the behavior of some students. Saying clever thing to them however, would. Many people respond more strongly to their animal instincts than to logic. You could trick a student into not distrupting class (eg offer them two choices and a minute to make a decision - they somehow forget they really have more choices), but for many, you couldn't incentivize them.

rl3 11y ago
>Essentially, people aren't rational. To expand on this, people with proclivities towards committing serious crimes tend to be highly irrational. Thus, employing a deterrent that relies upon the rationality of such individuals makes about as much sense as using a flamethrower to mow the lawn.
- cb18 11y ago
  I don't know if your meaning to say we should do away with criminal sentencing? I would think your not saying that, but just so no one gets the wrong idea. For people that commit crimes that are highly disruptive to society, on any level, from assaults to massive ponzi schemes, be these 'not particularly rational' individuals or otherwise, the sentence is a deterrent on the one hand, and on the other hand a deterrent as well, but one with a guarantee, because if they are in jail they are not going to be committing more crimes that are disruptive to society. So the criminal justice system still serves a purpose. If the prospect of jail, or just the desire to be a good human didn't stop someone from impulsively raping or murdering someone, then they belong in jail where they can't act out their impulsive rapes or murders on society at large.
  - vacri 11y ago
    The issue is that criminals for the most part don't think "ah, I can commit this crime, I will 'only' get 5-10 years" and "oh, this crime would be 50 years - in that case I won't do it". Extremely long sentences just don't add much to the mix.
    - blisterpeanuts 11y ago
      There's a tremendous body of evidence suggesting the opposite. Maybe not so much for first time offenders, but people with some experience in the criminal justice system are remarkably knowledgeable about the law, sentences, and exactly what consequences will ensue for particular behavior.
      - rl3 11y ago
        How do you reconcile that with a very high recidivism rate?[0] If anything, you're disproving your own argument. [0] http://www.bjs.gov/content/reentry/recidivism.cfm http://www.bjs.gov/content/reentry/recidivism.cfm
        msandford 11y ago
        > How do you reconcile that with a very high recidivism rate?[0] The upsides to crime for some people are very high, and the downsides of going to prison are again for those people, not all that high. I think that's pretty obvious. The problem is that you're taking the beliefs about prison that you hold and applying them universally. That's not the correct way to look at it. A person with $1mm in the bank is going to look at a Porsche and a Camry very differently than a person with $5k in the bank. A person with a criminal record who understands how stacked against him/her society is, is going to look at crime from a much more calculating position than a person with a spotless one. A person with a spotless record has something to lose by committing a crime; the possibility of losing the spotless record. The person who already has a criminal record has very little to lose at least from a reputational perspective.
Phithagoras 11y ago
“One's own free and unfettered volition, one's own caprice, however wild, one's own fancy, inflamed sometimes to the point of madness - that is the one best and greatest good, which is never taken into consideration because it cannot fit into any classification and the omission of which sends all systems and theories to the devil.” -Fyodor Dostoyevsky
narrator 11y ago
Kevin Epps' "Straight Outta Hunter's Point"[1] is a great watch on this topic. 1.http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0369993/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0369993/
rtpg 11y ago
There's a decent amount of experimental evidence to counter this realisation though. The yakuza basically never carry guns around anymore because the charges for carrying around a handgun are so high that it's just not worth it. We always say that "well if someone wants a gun they're gonna get it", which is pretty true. But some deterrents can slow down the transition from " I don't like that guy" to "I'm going to kill him" (hell, if we stop at "going to beat him with a bat", that's still a bit better). People aren't rational, but things like advertising works, so some form of deterrents must work too I think.
- pakled_engineer 11y ago
  The made Yakuza guys have underlings who carry guns and do violence for them though with the understanding they are to do the time if caught, so in effect nothing has changed. The criminals shooting at each other weekly where I live are all 18-25yr old drug delivery drivers working for established bosses they clearly aren't rational or else they'd realize a few thousand a week isn't worth life in prison. Plenty of these guys get caught but there doesn't seem to be any shortage of violent replacements.
  - aphrax 11y ago
    just out of interest where do you live?
  - thelastguy 11y ago
    >they clearly aren't rational or else they'd realize a few thousand a week isn't worth life in prison. Actually, they are pretty rational. You can't say no to the boss. You say no to the boss, you die. So they either deliver that drug, or die. They choose to deliver the drug, even if it means getting caught and doing life in prison. That's better than the boss killing you for not delivering the drug. >The criminals shooting at each other weekly... Again, they're not being irrational here. If you don't shoot, the other guy will shoot you. You either shoot, or you die because the other guy shoots you.
mcv 11y ago
But also, some people are pushed towards crime by circumstance. If you can't get a legal job, and there's no social security, at some point, crime may be the only remaining source of income. If you want to fight crime, fight poverty. Make sure ex-cons can get jobs and live a normal, respectable life. Make it easy for them, easier than picking up a life of crime again.
thelastguy 11y ago
>They don't act in their own self interests. Actually, they do. For example, when a criminal steals, he's acting purely in his own interest. He doensn't care about anyone else's interests. He doesn't care about his victim's interest. He only care about his own interest. Which is why he steals. For his own self interest. The problem is, society also has it's own interest. And it's in the best interest of society to jail the thief. Anyway, I think you meant to say that criminal doesn't think about the consequences of their actions. Again, because everything criminals do are for their own self interest. Even doing something stupid like drugs, is for their own self interest (in this case, he does it because his interest is to feel high).
conceit 11y ago
The thing is sometimes you wouldn't want people influenced, you'd want them to be excluded and all this brings with it.

rl3 11y ago

>Essentially, people aren't rational. To expand on this, people with proclivities towards committing serious crimes tend to be highly irrational. Thus, employing a deterrent that relies upon the rationality of such individuals makes about as much sense as using a flamethrower to mow the lawn.

cb18 11y ago
I don't know if your meaning to say we should do away with criminal sentencing? I would think your not saying that, but just so no one gets the wrong idea. For people that commit crimes that are highly disruptive to society, on any level, from assaults to massive ponzi schemes, be these 'not particularly rational' individuals or otherwise, the sentence is a deterrent on the one hand, and on the other hand a deterrent as well, but one with a guarantee, because if they are in jail they are not going to be committing more crimes that are disruptive to society. So the criminal justice system still serves a purpose. If the prospect of jail, or just the desire to be a good human didn't stop someone from impulsively raping or murdering someone, then they belong in jail where they can't act out their impulsive rapes or murders on society at large.
- vacri 11y ago
  The issue is that criminals for the most part don't think "ah, I can commit this crime, I will 'only' get 5-10 years" and "oh, this crime would be 50 years - in that case I won't do it". Extremely long sentences just don't add much to the mix.
  - blisterpeanuts 11y ago
    There's a tremendous body of evidence suggesting the opposite. Maybe not so much for first time offenders, but people with some experience in the criminal justice system are remarkably knowledgeable about the law, sentences, and exactly what consequences will ensue for particular behavior.
    - rl3 11y ago
      How do you reconcile that with a very high recidivism rate?[0] If anything, you're disproving your own argument. [0] http://www.bjs.gov/content/reentry/recidivism.cfm http://www.bjs.gov/content/reentry/recidivism.cfm
      - msandford 11y ago
        > How do you reconcile that with a very high recidivism rate?[0] The upsides to crime for some people are very high, and the downsides of going to prison are again for those people, not all that high. I think that's pretty obvious. The problem is that you're taking the beliefs about prison that you hold and applying them universally. That's not the correct way to look at it. A person with $1mm in the bank is going to look at a Porsche and a Camry very differently than a person with $5k in the bank. A person with a criminal record who understands how stacked against him/her society is, is going to look at crime from a much more calculating position than a person with a spotless one. A person with a spotless record has something to lose by committing a crime; the possibility of losing the spotless record. The person who already has a criminal record has very little to lose at least from a reputational perspective.

Phithagoras 11y ago

“One's own free and unfettered volition, one's own caprice, however wild, one's own fancy, inflamed sometimes to the point of madness - that is the one best and greatest good, which is never taken into consideration because it cannot fit into any classification and the omission of which sends all systems and theories to the devil.” -Fyodor Dostoyevsky

narrator 11y ago

Kevin Epps' "Straight Outta Hunter's Point"[1] is a great watch on this topic. 1.http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0369993/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0369993/

rtpg 11y ago

There's a decent amount of experimental evidence to counter this realisation though. The yakuza basically never carry guns around anymore because the charges for carrying around a handgun are so high that it's just not worth it. We always say that "well if someone wants a gun they're gonna get it", which is pretty true. But some deterrents can slow down the transition from " I don't like that guy" to "I'm going to kill him" (hell, if we stop at "going to beat him with a bat", that's still a bit better). People aren't rational, but things like advertising works, so some form of deterrents must work too I think.

pakled_engineer 11y ago
The made Yakuza guys have underlings who carry guns and do violence for them though with the understanding they are to do the time if caught, so in effect nothing has changed. The criminals shooting at each other weekly where I live are all 18-25yr old drug delivery drivers working for established bosses they clearly aren't rational or else they'd realize a few thousand a week isn't worth life in prison. Plenty of these guys get caught but there doesn't seem to be any shortage of violent replacements.
- aphrax 11y ago
  just out of interest where do you live?
- thelastguy 11y ago
  >they clearly aren't rational or else they'd realize a few thousand a week isn't worth life in prison. Actually, they are pretty rational. You can't say no to the boss. You say no to the boss, you die. So they either deliver that drug, or die. They choose to deliver the drug, even if it means getting caught and doing life in prison. That's better than the boss killing you for not delivering the drug. >The criminals shooting at each other weekly... Again, they're not being irrational here. If you don't shoot, the other guy will shoot you. You either shoot, or you die because the other guy shoots you.

mcv 11y ago

But also, some people are pushed towards crime by circumstance. If you can't get a legal job, and there's no social security, at some point, crime may be the only remaining source of income. If you want to fight crime, fight poverty. Make sure ex-cons can get jobs and live a normal, respectable life. Make it easy for them, easier than picking up a life of crime again.

thelastguy 11y ago

>They don't act in their own self interests. Actually, they do. For example, when a criminal steals, he's acting purely in his own interest. He doensn't care about anyone else's interests. He doesn't care about his victim's interest. He only care about his own interest. Which is why he steals. For his own self interest. The problem is, society also has it's own interest. And it's in the best interest of society to jail the thief. Anyway, I think you meant to say that criminal doesn't think about the consequences of their actions. Again, because everything criminals do are for their own self interest. Even doing something stupid like drugs, is for their own self interest (in this case, he does it because his interest is to feel high).

conceit 11y ago

The thing is sometimes you wouldn't want people influenced, you'd want them to be excluded and all this brings with it.