11 ms·

That's how business is done in places like Russia and China and in many very poor countries. Displease the government and face the full force of state power re

by derriz 11y ago

That's how business is done in places like Russia and China and in many very poor countries. Displease the government and face the full force of state power regardless of actual laws. I prefer being subject to laws and having recourse to a legal system where i am allowed to challenge even the behavior of the government. Subjecting corporations to capricious bullying when they do something unpopular is not "protecting citizens" - governments that act like that invariably also abuse individuals the same way.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
> That's how business is done in places like Russia and China and in many very poor countries. Displease the government and face the full force of state power regardless of actual laws. Not at all. I'm suggesting the legislative process be used. You're inferring that trade protectionism is totalitarian rule. Seriously? Citizens and their quality of life is more important than you business and its profits. Full stop. > I prefer being subject to laws and having recourse to a legal system where i am allowed to challenge even the behavior of the government. But you are. If you operate in a country, you're subject to its laws. You have recourse under the legal system, and recourse for its legislation if you are a citizen and have a vote. > Subjecting corporations to capricious bullying when they do something unpopular is not "protecting citizens" - governments that act like that invariably also abuse individuals the same way. Today I learned that forcing companies to follow the spirit rather than the letter of the law is "bullying". Makes me found of how China and Russia do business sometimes.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  Citizens and their quality of life is more important than you business and its profits What do you think the mechanism for improving quality of life is? Trade.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Not all trade improves quality of life, as I'm sure you're aware.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      Right, trade is neutral. Quality of life is a normative statement, however. The implication being that the state, as a centrally planning agent, is capable of calculating what will objectively increase or decrease QoL. Taken to its conclusion, we reach the spectacular failures of the Five-Year Plans and similar initiatives.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        I'd say the US economy isn't centrally planned. I would also say existing tax policy is used to encourage certain behaviors. I'm suggested further tax policy to encourage other behaviors as well. I don't see the problem. Shareholder's don't get as high of a dividend? Because its not like Pfizer is going to be using those savings for R&D. Its either going into people's pockets or used to acquire competitors (which arguably does not help consumers or increase their quality of life).
        eggy 11y ago
        Following your suggestion, go ahead and tax US corporations at a very high rate, they GTFO as you suggest, and now US citizens have to pay either for an inferior, generic low-priced drug, or a high-priced one imported by the very same, once-US-based corporation that also supplied jobs to US citizens that are now also exported overseas. What Pfizer does with its savings whether for R&D or not, is not yours or the government's business as long as they are not doing anything illegal with the profits. If they didn't invest in R&D or maintain competitiveness and their profit margins will go down. Eliminate any government subsidies and corruption that may enable them and other companies to escape market forces and it will take care of itself. Central planning - no thank you.
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        You're free to your opinion in the same way a government is free to not enforce any "intellectual property" rights a corporation may attempt to exert.
- derriz 11y ago
  It is not part of the legislative process in western liberal states to introduce laws that target specific named corporations or individuals separately to their peers. This mechanism is sometimes used by totalitarian or very authoritarian regiemes as a form of window dressing to justify punishing corporations and individuals who displease the government. And of course these punishements are always justified by some appeal to "protecting citizens" - both Hitler and Stalin constantly used this as justification. I like the fact that I live in a country where I can be punished for breaking actual laws not one where laws are vague or can be applied whimsically based on a notion of "spirit" or the intension of the drafter of the law instead of what the words of the law state.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    > I like the fact that I live in a country where I can be punished for breaking actual laws not one where laws are vague or can be applied whimsically based on a notion of "spirit" or the intension of the drafter of the law instead of what the words of the law state. Leave or do something to change the status quo. Those are your options.

by derriz 11y ago

toomuchtodo 11y ago

> That's how business is done in places like Russia and China and in many very poor countries. Displease the government and face the full force of state power regardless of actual laws. Not at all. I'm suggesting the legislative process be used. You're inferring that trade protectionism is totalitarian rule. Seriously? Citizens and their quality of life is more important than you business and its profits. Full stop. > I prefer being subject to laws and having recourse to a legal system where i am allowed to challenge even the behavior of the government. But you are. If you operate in a country, you're subject to its laws. You have recourse under the legal system, and recourse for its legislation if you are a citizen and have a vote. > Subjecting corporations to capricious bullying when they do something unpopular is not "protecting citizens" - governments that act like that invariably also abuse individuals the same way. Today I learned that forcing companies to follow the spirit rather than the letter of the law is "bullying". Makes me found of how China and Russia do business sometimes.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
Citizens and their quality of life is more important than you business and its profits What do you think the mechanism for improving quality of life is? Trade.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Not all trade improves quality of life, as I'm sure you're aware.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    Right, trade is neutral. Quality of life is a normative statement, however. The implication being that the state, as a centrally planning agent, is capable of calculating what will objectively increase or decrease QoL. Taken to its conclusion, we reach the spectacular failures of the Five-Year Plans and similar initiatives.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      I'd say the US economy isn't centrally planned. I would also say existing tax policy is used to encourage certain behaviors. I'm suggested further tax policy to encourage other behaviors as well. I don't see the problem. Shareholder's don't get as high of a dividend? Because its not like Pfizer is going to be using those savings for R&D. Its either going into people's pockets or used to acquire competitors (which arguably does not help consumers or increase their quality of life).
      - eggy 11y ago
        Following your suggestion, go ahead and tax US corporations at a very high rate, they GTFO as you suggest, and now US citizens have to pay either for an inferior, generic low-priced drug, or a high-priced one imported by the very same, once-US-based corporation that also supplied jobs to US citizens that are now also exported overseas. What Pfizer does with its savings whether for R&D or not, is not yours or the government's business as long as they are not doing anything illegal with the profits. If they didn't invest in R&D or maintain competitiveness and their profit margins will go down. Eliminate any government subsidies and corruption that may enable them and other companies to escape market forces and it will take care of itself. Central planning - no thank you.
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        You're free to your opinion in the same way a government is free to not enforce any "intellectual property" rights a corporation may attempt to exert.
derriz 11y ago
It is not part of the legislative process in western liberal states to introduce laws that target specific named corporations or individuals separately to their peers. This mechanism is sometimes used by totalitarian or very authoritarian regiemes as a form of window dressing to justify punishing corporations and individuals who displease the government. And of course these punishements are always justified by some appeal to "protecting citizens" - both Hitler and Stalin constantly used this as justification. I like the fact that I live in a country where I can be punished for breaking actual laws not one where laws are vague or can be applied whimsically based on a notion of "spirit" or the intension of the drafter of the law instead of what the words of the law state.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  > I like the fact that I live in a country where I can be punished for breaking actual laws not one where laws are vague or can be applied whimsically based on a notion of "spirit" or the intension of the drafter of the law instead of what the words of the law state. Leave or do something to change the status quo. Those are your options.