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I agree completely, and am publicly willing to do so because I'm not willing to live in a future where I can't publicly disagree with someone. Why is it technol

I agree completely, and am publicly willing to do so because I'm not willing to live in a future where I can't publicly disagree with someone. Why is it technology, specifically, that needs to be equalized? Because it's currently trendy? Because there's a lot of money in it? Is money all that matters? Why aren't we as interested in getting, say, more men into nursing, considering there a lot of underemployed, undereducated men in the US who have to work blue collar or service industry jobs to scrape by while women dominate that very lucrative and stable field? It makes absolutely no sense to me and I agree with the parent commenter that CS is intriguing to me precisely because it's such a great equalizer. Your code speaks for you, not your gender, race, or creed. I also don't see a lot of "Women in Pro Football" groups, either, even though that's an incredibly lucrative and prestigious profession. The whole thing is bonkers, and this is coming from someone who has two daughters (who are free to pursue whatever profession they like).

rm999 11y ago
>Why aren't we as interested in getting, say, more men into nursing... I also don't see a lot of "Women in Pro Football" groups This is seriously your argument? That's so fatalistic: this is the way things are, so this is the way things will be. You're also arguing a very "us" vs "them" mentality, which is what makes professions gendered to begin with. >CS is intriguing to me precisely because it's such a great equalizer You're ignoring the social aspect. Women are often discouraged from tech early on, which makes the profession more male-dominated, which makes women feel less comfortable, etc.
- marknutter 11y ago
  > This is seriously your argument? That's so fatalistic: this is the way things are, so this is the way things will be. You're also arguing a very "us" vs "them" mentality, which is what makes professions gendered to begin with. Yeah, seriously. It's my argument. Did I not sound serious enough? Are you addressing the content within my argument or the tone of my argument? I'm not being fatalistic, I'm genuinely asking those questions. I have a lot of male friends who didn't go into tech or nursing who are really struggling. One might go as far as to say they were "actively discouraged from nursing early on" while my female acquaintances happily slid into comfy and lucrative nursing positions. Yet, not once have I heard of or seen advertisements for Men in Nursing conferences or groups. I'm not making this "us" vs "them" as much as you want to frame my argument that way, and even if I did you'd have to explain why you think that leads to gendered professions. > You're ignoring the social aspect. Women are often discouraged from tech early on, which makes the profession more male-dominated, which makes women feel less comfortable, etc. Again, I could make the same (bad) argument by replacing "women" with "men" and "tech" with "nursing". Unless you're also willing to admit the problem exists there and needs to be dealt with, then I'm not sure we have much more to discuss. If however, you do think the gender imbalance in the field of nursing is a problem, then I need to be educated as to why it's a problem. I've heard arguments about why we need to get more women in tech, but they've never made a whole lot of sense to me. You know what we need more of in tech? People. Period. Far too few people chose CS as their field of study and as such there's a huge mismatch between supply and demand. If your mission is to increase the volume of people in tech, regardless of their race, gender, age, or creed, then count me in and how can I help? edit: accidentally a word
  - rm999 11y ago
    Discussing nursing isn't relevant, and even if it is two wrongs don't make a right, which is the logical fallacy you keep making here. But if you want to hear me say it: there's a shortage of nurses and the fact that men aren't going into it due to social pressures is an issue. >You know what we need more of in tech? People Lowest hanging fruit: actively do something about the fact that half the population isn't going into tech. And this is what you're arguing against, even though you may not realize it. Those conferences and reach-out efforts are explicitly active attempts at solving the problem in a positive way. They aren't meant to exclude men (I was a member of the women in tech club in college), they're usually meant to undo harmful biases in society.
    - marknutter 11y ago
      > Discussing nursing isn't relevant, and even if it is two wrongs don't make a right, which is the logical fallacy you keep making here. But if you want to hear me say it: there's a shortage of nurses and the fact that men aren't going into it due to social pressures is an issue. As long as we're pointing out fallacies, you're attacking a straw man here. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right; I'm saying neither wrong is actually a wrong. They are simply outcomes, neither negative nor positive. The overarching point I'm trying to make is that if we both agree we need more nurses, and we both agree we need more techies, and we both agree that men tend toward tech and women tend toward nursing, and operating under the assumption that it's a zero sum game (hint: it's not), then there's nothing wrong with women staying in nursing to keep the overall number of nurses high and men staying in tech to keep the overall number of techies high. I simply do not see the need for the fields of nursing and tech to swap genders until they both hit some gender equilibrium. The goal should be to increase the overall volume of both nurses and techies (and decrease, perhaps, the number of lawyers ;-). And by the way, the other day my 3 year old daughter told me she wants to be a nurse when she grows up. It would feel wrong to discourage her by pushing her toward a career in programming, but maybe that's just me. edit: grammar and added the bit about increasing overall volume of nurses and techies
      - saint_fiasco 11y ago
aeturnum 11y ago
> Why aren't we as interested in getting, say, more men into nursing I take it from this comment that you don't work in nursing or know anyone who does. There is an active movement to get more men into nursing, though I don't follow nursing statistics closely enough to characterize its success.
- marknutter 11y ago
  > I take it from this comment that you don't work in nursing Correct > or know anyone who does Incorrect > There is an active movement to get more men into nursing, though I don't follow nursing statistics closely enough to characterize its success. Enlighten me.
  - Nadya 11y ago
    They're probably talking about "Are you man enough to be a nurse?" which briefly grabbed attention over a decade ago. Want more men in nursing? Discourage them from being competitive and choosing to become doctors. Male doctors outnumber female doctors nearly 2 to 1. Men become physicians and surgeons. Women become obstetrics and pediatrics. As a general rule of thumb, most fields that show a gender difference lean heavily towards social bias and differences between gender preferences than discrimination against anyone. I don't know when it became so socially unacceptable to have different preferences than someone else. Disclaimer: I don't work in nursing. My grandmother was a nurse for 35 years. I'd hardly call it an "active movement". I don't closely follow the statistics (frankly, I don't care) but it is easy to see that it has not been successful by any significant margin.
    - kansface 11y ago
      > Male doctors outnumber female doctors nearly 2 to 1. Matriculation in US med schools was ~47% female this year.
  - aeturnum 11y ago
    Well, I'm not in the profession, but my partner has and she has seen a focus on male students at her school, as well as a preference for male nurses in hiring. These are completely anecdotal, of course, so what do we get if we google "men in nursing"? American Assembly for Men in Nursing: http://aamn.org/ http://aamn.org/ Census report on men in nursing fields: https://www.census.gov/people/io/files/Men_in_Nursing_Occupations.pdf https://www.census.gov/people/io/files/Men_in_Nursing_Occupa... An article from Men In Nursing magazine: http://www.nursingcenter.com/journalarticle?Article_ID=658434 http://www.nursingcenter.com/journalarticle?Article_ID=65843... (admittedly on the second page) The Male Nurses Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/MaleNurses/ https://www.facebook.com/MaleNurses/ I just thought male nurses was a particularly poor example, as people are interested in increasing the number of male nurses, and looking at the census report they have been having steady success.

rm999 11y ago

>Why aren't we as interested in getting, say, more men into nursing... I also don't see a lot of "Women in Pro Football" groups This is seriously your argument? That's so fatalistic: this is the way things are, so this is the way things will be. You're also arguing a very "us" vs "them" mentality, which is what makes professions gendered to begin with. >CS is intriguing to me precisely because it's such a great equalizer You're ignoring the social aspect. Women are often discouraged from tech early on, which makes the profession more male-dominated, which makes women feel less comfortable, etc.

marknutter 11y ago
> This is seriously your argument? That's so fatalistic: this is the way things are, so this is the way things will be. You're also arguing a very "us" vs "them" mentality, which is what makes professions gendered to begin with. Yeah, seriously. It's my argument. Did I not sound serious enough? Are you addressing the content within my argument or the tone of my argument? I'm not being fatalistic, I'm genuinely asking those questions. I have a lot of male friends who didn't go into tech or nursing who are really struggling. One might go as far as to say they were "actively discouraged from nursing early on" while my female acquaintances happily slid into comfy and lucrative nursing positions. Yet, not once have I heard of or seen advertisements for Men in Nursing conferences or groups. I'm not making this "us" vs "them" as much as you want to frame my argument that way, and even if I did you'd have to explain why you think that leads to gendered professions. > You're ignoring the social aspect. Women are often discouraged from tech early on, which makes the profession more male-dominated, which makes women feel less comfortable, etc. Again, I could make the same (bad) argument by replacing "women" with "men" and "tech" with "nursing". Unless you're also willing to admit the problem exists there and needs to be dealt with, then I'm not sure we have much more to discuss. If however, you do think the gender imbalance in the field of nursing is a problem, then I need to be educated as to why it's a problem. I've heard arguments about why we need to get more women in tech, but they've never made a whole lot of sense to me. You know what we need more of in tech? People. Period. Far too few people chose CS as their field of study and as such there's a huge mismatch between supply and demand. If your mission is to increase the volume of people in tech, regardless of their race, gender, age, or creed, then count me in and how can I help? edit: accidentally a word
- rm999 11y ago
  Discussing nursing isn't relevant, and even if it is two wrongs don't make a right, which is the logical fallacy you keep making here. But if you want to hear me say it: there's a shortage of nurses and the fact that men aren't going into it due to social pressures is an issue. >You know what we need more of in tech? People Lowest hanging fruit: actively do something about the fact that half the population isn't going into tech. And this is what you're arguing against, even though you may not realize it. Those conferences and reach-out efforts are explicitly active attempts at solving the problem in a positive way. They aren't meant to exclude men (I was a member of the women in tech club in college), they're usually meant to undo harmful biases in society.
  - marknutter 11y ago
    > Discussing nursing isn't relevant, and even if it is two wrongs don't make a right, which is the logical fallacy you keep making here. But if you want to hear me say it: there's a shortage of nurses and the fact that men aren't going into it due to social pressures is an issue. As long as we're pointing out fallacies, you're attacking a straw man here. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right; I'm saying neither wrong is actually a wrong. They are simply outcomes, neither negative nor positive. The overarching point I'm trying to make is that if we both agree we need more nurses, and we both agree we need more techies, and we both agree that men tend toward tech and women tend toward nursing, and operating under the assumption that it's a zero sum game (hint: it's not), then there's nothing wrong with women staying in nursing to keep the overall number of nurses high and men staying in tech to keep the overall number of techies high. I simply do not see the need for the fields of nursing and tech to swap genders until they both hit some gender equilibrium. The goal should be to increase the overall volume of both nurses and techies (and decrease, perhaps, the number of lawyers ;-). And by the way, the other day my 3 year old daughter told me she wants to be a nurse when she grows up. It would feel wrong to discourage her by pushing her toward a career in programming, but maybe that's just me. edit: grammar and added the bit about increasing overall volume of nurses and techies
    - saint_fiasco 11y ago

aeturnum 11y ago

> Why aren't we as interested in getting, say, more men into nursing I take it from this comment that you don't work in nursing or know anyone who does. There is an active movement to get more men into nursing, though I don't follow nursing statistics closely enough to characterize its success.

marknutter 11y ago
> I take it from this comment that you don't work in nursing Correct > or know anyone who does Incorrect > There is an active movement to get more men into nursing, though I don't follow nursing statistics closely enough to characterize its success. Enlighten me.
- Nadya 11y ago
  They're probably talking about "Are you man enough to be a nurse?" which briefly grabbed attention over a decade ago. Want more men in nursing? Discourage them from being competitive and choosing to become doctors. Male doctors outnumber female doctors nearly 2 to 1. Men become physicians and surgeons. Women become obstetrics and pediatrics. As a general rule of thumb, most fields that show a gender difference lean heavily towards social bias and differences between gender preferences than discrimination against anyone. I don't know when it became so socially unacceptable to have different preferences than someone else. Disclaimer: I don't work in nursing. My grandmother was a nurse for 35 years. I'd hardly call it an "active movement". I don't closely follow the statistics (frankly, I don't care) but it is easy to see that it has not been successful by any significant margin.
  - kansface 11y ago
    > Male doctors outnumber female doctors nearly 2 to 1. Matriculation in US med schools was ~47% female this year.
- aeturnum 11y ago
  Well, I'm not in the profession, but my partner has and she has seen a focus on male students at her school, as well as a preference for male nurses in hiring. These are completely anecdotal, of course, so what do we get if we google "men in nursing"? American Assembly for Men in Nursing: http://aamn.org/ http://aamn.org/ Census report on men in nursing fields: https://www.census.gov/people/io/files/Men_in_Nursing_Occupations.pdf https://www.census.gov/people/io/files/Men_in_Nursing_Occupa... An article from Men In Nursing magazine: http://www.nursingcenter.com/journalarticle?Article_ID=658434 http://www.nursingcenter.com/journalarticle?Article_ID=65843... (admittedly on the second page) The Male Nurses Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/MaleNurses/ https://www.facebook.com/MaleNurses/ I just thought male nurses was a particularly poor example, as people are interested in increasing the number of male nurses, and looking at the census report they have been having steady success.