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> it ends up being slightly malicious or dismissive of other movements like feminism When feminiism has become a movement against truth and against half the p

> it ends up being slightly malicious or dismissive of other movements like feminism When feminiism has become a movement against truth and against half the population, what do you expect?

TeMPOraL 11y ago
Niceness, community and civilization. http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/23/in-favor-of-niceness-community-and-civilization/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/23/in-favor-of-niceness-co...
iamsohungry 11y ago
When that happens, I'll be malicious and dismissive toward feminism. But that hasn't happened yet. There are more feminists who are reasonable people than there are vocal crazies. Some things said by feminists: * "Men weren’t really the enemy — they were fellow victims suffering from an outmoded masculine mystique that made them feel unnecessarily inadequate when there were no bears to kill." -- Betty Friedan * "Women and men communicate differently, often on entirely different planes. But just as men have failed us, we have failed them. It has been one of our great collective female shortcomings to presume that whatever we do not perceive simply isn't there, or that whatever is not communicated in our language is not intelligible speech." ― Norah Vincent * I can't find the reference, but I seem to remember that the first person to widely spread the idea that it's possible for men to be raped was a feminist. Remember that the college kids at Yale are exactly that: kids. I remember a time shortly after I became an atheist where I was angry at everyone religious for wronging me. It took me a while to realize that many religious people weren't horrible people, they were just humans, who were doing the wrong thing while trying their best to do the right thing. College students who are newly finding their voices are defining the conversation here, but they're not bad people, they just haven't realized yet that the people who they're attacking are just humans, too.
- rewqfdsa 11y ago
  And then you get people who promote the Duluth Model, which declares men guilty until proven innocent. No, feminism has turned into an anti-male movement. Prominent exceptions aside, feminism is the excuse the current illiberal generation is using to curtail the rights of men. "Bitch" is profane, but the word "mansplain" is apparently respectable vocabulary. Tell me all you want that feminism isn't a harmful force in society today. That idea is not consistent with my experience. When modern feminists hear that boys are doing worse in school than they used to, they just say "good; it's about time". These days, every time I hear someone arguing against equal treatment, against free speech, against due process, and again diversity of opinion, that person is a self-proclaimed feminist. Modern feminists really believe that today's men, especially white men, should suffer for imagined crimes of our ancestors. It's perfectly fine to have women-only conferences and events, but if we even think of a men-only club, that's backwards and sexist. Feminism is about double standards and about setting the genders against each other. The idea that feminism benefits men too is a lie.
  - iamsohungry 11y ago
    > No, feminism has turned into an anti-male movement. If you're incapable of recognizing that feminism isn't one set of ideas, but a diverse set of ideas, you're just as bad as those who espouse the Duluth model. You accuse all feminists of declaring men guilty until proven innocent, but in doing so, you're declaring all feminists guilty even despite the fact that I've already shown some of them to be innocent. And what's more, you're alienating a lot of feminists who would be on your side. > That idea is not consistent with my experience. Which is why I tried to expand your experience by quoting major feminist writers. Do you not realize that your experience is limited? > These days, every time I hear someone arguing against equal treatment, against free speech, against due process, and again diversity of opinion, that person is a self-proclaimed feminist. Every time I see a rapist on the news that person is a self-proclaimed man. If you're going to (correctly) complain about being judged by a few poor examples of our gender, you should recognize the hypocrisy of judging all feminists by a few poor examples of their movement.
    - rewqfdsa 11y ago
      > feminism isn't one set of ideas, but a diverse set of ideas Irrelevant. What matters is the people who have social currency and power today, and they're the toxic variety of feminist.
      - iamsohungry 11y ago
        The feminists you are dismissing as irrelevant have every bit as much social currency and power as the ones who are vocal, they just aren't using it as often, which is why it's so short-sighted of you do dismiss them. The public debate on this isn't going to be won by men dismissing feminism: that's just going to radicalize more feminists. And even if it could be won that way, that is that what you want: for men to control the public discourse and women be trivialized? That's not what I want. I want actual equality. More likely, the path to reason is for reasonable feminists to hear how important this issue is from reasonable men, and start taking our side. It's political suicide for a man to publicly stand against radical feminism. It's not political suicide for a moderate feminist to stand against radical feminism.

> it ends up being slightly malicious or dismissive of other movements like feminism When feminiism has become a movement against truth and against half the population, what do you expect?

TeMPOraL 11y ago

Niceness, community and civilization. http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/23/in-favor-of-niceness-community-and-civilization/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/23/in-favor-of-niceness-co...

iamsohungry 11y ago

When that happens, I'll be malicious and dismissive toward feminism. But that hasn't happened yet. There are more feminists who are reasonable people than there are vocal crazies. Some things said by feminists: * "Men weren’t really the enemy — they were fellow victims suffering from an outmoded masculine mystique that made them feel unnecessarily inadequate when there were no bears to kill." -- Betty Friedan * "Women and men communicate differently, often on entirely different planes. But just as men have failed us, we have failed them. It has been one of our great collective female shortcomings to presume that whatever we do not perceive simply isn't there, or that whatever is not communicated in our language is not intelligible speech." ― Norah Vincent * I can't find the reference, but I seem to remember that the first person to widely spread the idea that it's possible for men to be raped was a feminist. Remember that the college kids at Yale are exactly that: kids. I remember a time shortly after I became an atheist where I was angry at everyone religious for wronging me. It took me a while to realize that many religious people weren't horrible people, they were just humans, who were doing the wrong thing while trying their best to do the right thing. College students who are newly finding their voices are defining the conversation here, but they're not bad people, they just haven't realized yet that the people who they're attacking are just humans, too.

rewqfdsa 11y ago
And then you get people who promote the Duluth Model, which declares men guilty until proven innocent. No, feminism has turned into an anti-male movement. Prominent exceptions aside, feminism is the excuse the current illiberal generation is using to curtail the rights of men. "Bitch" is profane, but the word "mansplain" is apparently respectable vocabulary. Tell me all you want that feminism isn't a harmful force in society today. That idea is not consistent with my experience. When modern feminists hear that boys are doing worse in school than they used to, they just say "good; it's about time". These days, every time I hear someone arguing against equal treatment, against free speech, against due process, and again diversity of opinion, that person is a self-proclaimed feminist. Modern feminists really believe that today's men, especially white men, should suffer for imagined crimes of our ancestors. It's perfectly fine to have women-only conferences and events, but if we even think of a men-only club, that's backwards and sexist. Feminism is about double standards and about setting the genders against each other. The idea that feminism benefits men too is a lie.
- iamsohungry 11y ago
  > No, feminism has turned into an anti-male movement. If you're incapable of recognizing that feminism isn't one set of ideas, but a diverse set of ideas, you're just as bad as those who espouse the Duluth model. You accuse all feminists of declaring men guilty until proven innocent, but in doing so, you're declaring all feminists guilty even despite the fact that I've already shown some of them to be innocent. And what's more, you're alienating a lot of feminists who would be on your side. > That idea is not consistent with my experience. Which is why I tried to expand your experience by quoting major feminist writers. Do you not realize that your experience is limited? > These days, every time I hear someone arguing against equal treatment, against free speech, against due process, and again diversity of opinion, that person is a self-proclaimed feminist. Every time I see a rapist on the news that person is a self-proclaimed man. If you're going to (correctly) complain about being judged by a few poor examples of our gender, you should recognize the hypocrisy of judging all feminists by a few poor examples of their movement.
  - rewqfdsa 11y ago
    > feminism isn't one set of ideas, but a diverse set of ideas Irrelevant. What matters is the people who have social currency and power today, and they're the toxic variety of feminist.
    - iamsohungry 11y ago
      The feminists you are dismissing as irrelevant have every bit as much social currency and power as the ones who are vocal, they just aren't using it as often, which is why it's so short-sighted of you do dismiss them. The public debate on this isn't going to be won by men dismissing feminism: that's just going to radicalize more feminists. And even if it could be won that way, that is that what you want: for men to control the public discourse and women be trivialized? That's not what I want. I want actual equality. More likely, the path to reason is for reasonable feminists to hear how important this issue is from reasonable men, and start taking our side. It's political suicide for a man to publicly stand against radical feminism. It's not political suicide for a moderate feminist to stand against radical feminism.