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The Guantánamo "Suicides": A Camp Delta sergeant blows the whistle

82 points by dantheman 17y ago

dantheman 17y ago
Not Traditional HN Fare, but I think an extremely important article.
- amvp 17y ago
  Agreed. It may be Off Topic, but it's incredibly important to shine a light on these things - unpleasant and uncomfortable as they may be. It's easy for us to look at history and marvel at the inhumanity that we're capable of, but Milgram's experiments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) showed that an individual's conscience is a reticent faculty, when isolated in the face of authority. It's imperative that we talk openly, and agree as a society what's allowed and what's simply unacceptable.
  - andreyf 17y ago
    Milgram's experiments showed that an individual's conscience is a reticent faculty Note, however, that this study only selected people who responded as willing to participate in a "two-week study on prison life". That sounds appealing to some people more than others. Then again, so does military service.
  - tungstenfurnace 17y ago
    It's better to steer clear of political issues which are covered more than adequately elsewhere. They are by their nature divisive and tend to make people upset and/or angry. This coarsens the atmosphere and makes reasoned and intelligent discussion far less feasible.
    - tptacek 17y ago
      It's already done so here. Look downthread, where, in an effort to make this story about torture and murder relevant to Hacker News, we've begun making an issue out of military censorship, as if that's what's imminentizing the demise of the Republic. It's dispiriting that this article hasn't been flagged off the site yet.
      - pmorici 17y ago
        Whats more dispiriting is that the number two article at this moment is about shoelace knots. I'd rather read this factual account than some crap about shoe laces given the choice between the two.
    - rbanffy 17y ago
      I can be upset and angry and still participate in a rational discussion. What will we do when an issue is both important and divisive? Will we avoid it because it's divisive and may upset people? Is not being upset more important than the free exchange of ideas? This is Hacker News. Maybe I am projecting something here, but I thought of us as explorers of ideas. Do we want to prevent, to silence, discussion?
      - tungstenfurnace 17y ago
        >I can be upset and angry and still participate in a rational discussion. The problem is that it would only take a few people who can't remain rational for a tipping point to be reached whereby the overall quality of debate badly degrades. (That's when some of the most valuable contributors start to disappear.) >What will we do when an issue is both important and divisive If such a political issue affected hackers directly then there'd be no way to avoid that discussion. >Do we want to prevent, to silence, discussion? Of course not. And that's precisely why politics in general should be avoided. Aside from the eve psych, I'm with Eliezer Yudkowsky on this: http://lesswrong.com/lw/gw/politics_is_the_mindkiller/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/gw/politics_is_the_mindkiller/
        rbanffy 17y ago
        "a few people who couldn't manage that" That's what downvotes are for. That's why we should refrain from downvoting for disagreement and keeping it for shorting out comments that are damaging to the discussion.
- nailer 17y ago
  Agreed. But I can read this on Reddit, that's not why people come to HN, and this is against the HN guidelines. Please stop submitting these worthy articles to unrelated sites. PS. It's also considered bad form to moderate polite comments you disagree with to zero.
tptacek 17y ago
Flagged. An important article for another site.
- amvp 17y ago
  I disagree. Some things transcend that distinction and should be discussed in every community - they affect every human. And this is coming from somebody who isn't thrilled HN isn't as hard edged tech/startup-culture focused as it once was. On the front page right now I see: 'When work doesn't pay for the middle class' 'FBI broke law for years in phone record searches' 'Professor Is a Label That Leans to the Left' Flag those and I'll upvote you. But I'd like this one to get as many eyeballs as possible.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    The mistake you're making here is thinking about it as a value judgement about the article. It's not. The article is solid. I read it. I've been following the story. It simply has nothing to do with what Hacker News is about, and sticking it here to maximize the number of eyeballs it gets is an abuse of the site. Here's some help, if the guidelines seem fuzzy: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html There is nothing about this story that gratifies anyone's intellectual curiosity. Those of us who are inclined to believe stories reported in Harpers (myself included) already know about the torture problem. It isn't evidence of a new trend. The rest of you reading this would be doing the site a favor if, instead of voting me up, you simply hit the "flag" button on the story.
    - trevelyan 17y ago
      Chinese censorship policy is considered fair game but American censorship policy isn't? Strange perspective.
      - nailer 17y ago
        This isn't censorship. You're welcome to submit the article to any site you want. I think it's a good article, and deserves to be read. But this is forum for discussing technology, startups, and hacker-relevant topics. Edit: if the article itself contains something about technology, it's clearly not the main subject, which is prisoner abuse.
pmorici 17y ago
Google maps has some good photos, you can even see the white van mentioned in the story in the woods. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Guantanamo+bay&sll=37.926868,-95.712891&sspn=48.606034,54.580078&ie=UTF8&hq=Guantanamo+bay&hnear=Guant%C3%A1namo+Bay&ll=19.906799,-75.110435&spn=0.003586,0.003331&t=h&z=18 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&#38...

82 points by dantheman 17y ago

dantheman 17y ago

Not Traditional HN Fare, but I think an extremely important article.

amvp 17y ago
Agreed. It may be Off Topic, but it's incredibly important to shine a light on these things - unpleasant and uncomfortable as they may be. It's easy for us to look at history and marvel at the inhumanity that we're capable of, but Milgram's experiments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) showed that an individual's conscience is a reticent faculty, when isolated in the face of authority. It's imperative that we talk openly, and agree as a society what's allowed and what's simply unacceptable.
- andreyf 17y ago
  Milgram's experiments showed that an individual's conscience is a reticent faculty Note, however, that this study only selected people who responded as willing to participate in a "two-week study on prison life". That sounds appealing to some people more than others. Then again, so does military service.
- tungstenfurnace 17y ago
  It's better to steer clear of political issues which are covered more than adequately elsewhere. They are by their nature divisive and tend to make people upset and/or angry. This coarsens the atmosphere and makes reasoned and intelligent discussion far less feasible.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    It's already done so here. Look downthread, where, in an effort to make this story about torture and murder relevant to Hacker News, we've begun making an issue out of military censorship, as if that's what's imminentizing the demise of the Republic. It's dispiriting that this article hasn't been flagged off the site yet.
    - pmorici 17y ago
      Whats more dispiriting is that the number two article at this moment is about shoelace knots. I'd rather read this factual account than some crap about shoe laces given the choice between the two.
  - rbanffy 17y ago
    I can be upset and angry and still participate in a rational discussion. What will we do when an issue is both important and divisive? Will we avoid it because it's divisive and may upset people? Is not being upset more important than the free exchange of ideas? This is Hacker News. Maybe I am projecting something here, but I thought of us as explorers of ideas. Do we want to prevent, to silence, discussion?
    - tungstenfurnace 17y ago
      >I can be upset and angry and still participate in a rational discussion. The problem is that it would only take a few people who can't remain rational for a tipping point to be reached whereby the overall quality of debate badly degrades. (That's when some of the most valuable contributors start to disappear.) >What will we do when an issue is both important and divisive If such a political issue affected hackers directly then there'd be no way to avoid that discussion. >Do we want to prevent, to silence, discussion? Of course not. And that's precisely why politics in general should be avoided. Aside from the eve psych, I'm with Eliezer Yudkowsky on this: http://lesswrong.com/lw/gw/politics_is_the_mindkiller/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/gw/politics_is_the_mindkiller/
      - rbanffy 17y ago
        "a few people who couldn't manage that" That's what downvotes are for. That's why we should refrain from downvoting for disagreement and keeping it for shorting out comments that are damaging to the discussion.
nailer 17y ago
Agreed. But I can read this on Reddit, that's not why people come to HN, and this is against the HN guidelines. Please stop submitting these worthy articles to unrelated sites. PS. It's also considered bad form to moderate polite comments you disagree with to zero.

tptacek 17y ago

Flagged. An important article for another site.

amvp 17y ago
I disagree. Some things transcend that distinction and should be discussed in every community - they affect every human. And this is coming from somebody who isn't thrilled HN isn't as hard edged tech/startup-culture focused as it once was. On the front page right now I see: 'When work doesn't pay for the middle class' 'FBI broke law for years in phone record searches' 'Professor Is a Label That Leans to the Left' Flag those and I'll upvote you. But I'd like this one to get as many eyeballs as possible.
- tptacek 17y ago
  The mistake you're making here is thinking about it as a value judgement about the article. It's not. The article is solid. I read it. I've been following the story. It simply has nothing to do with what Hacker News is about, and sticking it here to maximize the number of eyeballs it gets is an abuse of the site. Here's some help, if the guidelines seem fuzzy: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html There is nothing about this story that gratifies anyone's intellectual curiosity. Those of us who are inclined to believe stories reported in Harpers (myself included) already know about the torture problem. It isn't evidence of a new trend. The rest of you reading this would be doing the site a favor if, instead of voting me up, you simply hit the "flag" button on the story.
  - trevelyan 17y ago
    Chinese censorship policy is considered fair game but American censorship policy isn't? Strange perspective.
    - nailer 17y ago
      This isn't censorship. You're welcome to submit the article to any site you want. I think it's a good article, and deserves to be read. But this is forum for discussing technology, startups, and hacker-relevant topics. Edit: if the article itself contains something about technology, it's clearly not the main subject, which is prisoner abuse.

pmorici 17y ago

Google maps has some good photos, you can even see the white van mentioned in the story in the woods. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Guantanamo+bay&sll=37.926868,-95.712891&sspn=48.606034,54.580078&ie=UTF8&hq=Guantanamo+bay&hnear=Guant%C3%A1namo+Bay&ll=19.906799,-75.110435&spn=0.003586,0.003331&t=h&z=18 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&#38...