5 ms·

Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers has done some interesting research, and given many eye opening talks regarding this matter. Reading this article made my morning. It'

Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers has done some interesting research, and given many eye opening talks regarding this matter. Reading this article made my morning. It's time we step back and reevaluate the way we are raising the youth. This war on boys is wrong, and could have disastrous effects on our society in the future.

dudul 11y ago
Agreed. It is baffling to me that nobody seems to seriously consider that this war on men/boys is what creates this weird and uncomfortable social dynamic. Masculinity is not something to be feared or ashamed of, teaching that is what creates dysfunctional men.
- kod 11y ago
  No, social norms that - you're not allowed to show emotion (unless it's anger) - you must get all of your emotional needs met through first your mother, and then your girlfriend / wife are what creates dysfunctional men.
  - Retric 11y ago
    As a tall, large framed man, I often get very strong negative reactions when I am physically fit. And I mean fit not weightlifting bulk. Keeping short hair and a clean shave while swimming regularly is a very utilitarian choice, but you get even stronger negative reactions. The way out? Growing long hair transformed rather negative skin head connotations with a far more teasing Fabio. Our culture really looks down on the strong male archetype. PS: Don't believe me? Try growing a natural aka full beard.
    - thomnottom 11y ago
      As someone with a full beard, a father who wears a full beard, and several friends with full beards, what is the problem with them?
      - Retric 11y ago
        For one thing it lowers the bar before people think your indigent. Depending on industry it can often make it harder to find a job. On the whole it's generally viewed as a low status symbol. Granted this is mostly from the east coast of the US (DC). And having a styled bearded seems to make a large difference.
        thomnottom 11y ago
        All I can say is that I and my friends in the NYC and Philly region working (mostly) in pharmaceutical and financial industries do not generally experience this. But obviously that would be anecdotal.
        moistgorilla 11y ago
        > financial Isn't finance the place where being clean shaven is almost necessary if you want to succeed?
        remarkEon 11y ago
        -> almost necessary Required. I'm in graduate school right now and you won't get a call back for 2nd rounds if you have a beard. It's some sort of irrational proxy for discipline.
        Nadya 11y ago
        This is going to sound worse than I mean it to be, but I'm not familiar with NYC. Is Philly a "hipster" region? A full (groomed) beard in SanFran will be seen completely differently than full (groomed) beard in Los Angeles. You'll fit right in with the SF hipsters but you'll be seen as a bum/idiot in LA. There is a drastic difference in perception against say.. the Dollar Beard Club [0] and "manly-men" beards. The difference in perception is a source of comedy [1]. The source of this perception difference is that people "allowed" to grow beards for work were/are typically blue-collar workers. Blue-collar work is associated with those of lesser intelligence (sorry to any hard working blue-collars out there....) while white-collar professions are seen as "more intelligent" and have typically required being clean shaven. As it follows, facial hair = blue collar worker = less intelligent. That's just how things are currently. Obviously this is changing, but more-so in "hipster" areas where people do white-collar work and grow their beards out. As the requirement/stigma against facial hair dies out. [0] https://www.dollarbeardclub.com/ https://www.dollarbeardclub.com/ [1] http://www.primalunleashed.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/10458871_10152170006550108_7588909318375872464_n.jpg http://www.primalunleashed.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/...
    - Jtsummers 11y ago
      I think this depends strongly on where you are. I'm in the southeast, here a shaved (or nearly shaved) head and a full beard (if the guy can grow it, goatees otherwise) are incredibly common, and (mostly) disjoint from the skinhead crowd.
  - AngrySkillzz 11y ago
    It could be both; that when young men have "traditional masculinity" exposed as bullshit (which I agree with) and pulled out from under them, they have difficulty understanding themselves in a world without such a framing device.
    - ps4fanboy 11y ago
      That statement is no more ridiculous than calling femininity bullshit, why are you so hateful.
    - remarkEon 11y ago
      What is "traditional masculinity" and why is it bullshit? I ask because it seems this is going to end up as some kind of no-true-scotsman.
      - thelastguy 11y ago
        "Traditional masculinity" is the kind of masculinity that have enabled humanity to survived for millions of years. It includes traits such as: - Protecting women and children - Not crying when a tiger attack - Attacking the tiger instead, and to do so, requires - Forming a group of hunters, to go and kill that tiger, aka leadership - This also requires some amount of muscles, and aggression - because you can't kill a tiger with love and passivity - Declaring war on other men who want to rape your wife and daughter - Not wanting to, but having to fight wars against other group of men who want to rape your wife and daughter - Letting your son fight, and practice fighting with friend, so that they can defend themselves against enemies, who want to rape your wife and daughters, and... tigers, who wants to eat your wife and daughters - Also, if a tiger attacks, the brother has to save the sister, and if necessary, sacrifices himself to make sure the sister survives - Most important of all, a guy must be able to acquire resources in some form (food, woods, money, cows, etc) to provide for his family (without complaining, whining, crying, or any other emo bullshit that doesn't help him in his goal of acquiring resources) - etc. etc. You know. The traditional traits that a woman look for in a man. Obviously, as we have found out, these traits are bullshit and toxic and men MUST get rid of these traits that helped humanity survived for millions of years, because, like they said, they're all toxic.
  - FilterSweep 11y ago
    You're oversimplifying "social norms" to the point where you completely neglect the emotional outlets that males DO use. Outlets (like male-only spaces for one, or sports, for another) that have been demonized by those same people who create this generalized talking point. Many of our boys have lost that outlet. Or don't even know it exists anymore.
  - Cthulhu_ 11y ago
    And the current anti-men fad the article speaks about is only enforcing that, only extending it with "You're not allowed to have an opinion because you are a (white) (non-transsexual) (straight) man. The SJW movement isn't making the world a better place, it's trying to take political correctness to its extremes, which is its own form of oppression with the side-effects of people in certain demographics becoming afraid to speak up (see article).
  - forgottenpass 11y ago
    [...] are what creates dysfunctional men. Even if we posit what you say is true, there are no alternate expression and communication toolboxes presented as a set of life skills. The only thing society has offered are signals that society wants men to cry more, and only in the situations they're socially cued to cry. The comment you're replying to says "Masculinity is not something to be feared or ashamed of, teaching that is what creates dysfunctional men." What other impression do you expect men to get when they're told the problem with masculinity is that it's too masculine? For them to act LESS stoic? Is society going to accept with open arms an entirely new form of expression? Especially when the people who fancy themselves able to understand the problems with masculinity cue men to be more stoic while pretending to want the opposite. (The more degenerate form of it from people that get all their philosophy from blogs with Fox News levels of bullshit even has a cute little hastagh for it #MasculinitySoFragile)
    - vlehto 11y ago
      There was recent article on some big media house about transplant uterus implanted into woman. And she delivered a healthy baby. There was some hint that completely artificial uterus could be possibility in the future. The shitstorm from women was huge. "Think about the children not adopted." It's illogical argument, made for logical reasons. Young women are potential mothers, then they are mothers, and then they get to be grandmothers. That's their special value to society and their privileges are based on that capability. When someone hint's about losing that special status, women get really defensive. It's easy to joke about fragility of masculinity, when status of femininity is hard coded to bodies of women. Women talk about femininity a lot, but they have not had to really question it yet. That being said, humor seems to be so integral part of masculinity that it's only fitting to laugh about it.

dudul 11y ago

Agreed. It is baffling to me that nobody seems to seriously consider that this war on men/boys is what creates this weird and uncomfortable social dynamic. Masculinity is not something to be feared or ashamed of, teaching that is what creates dysfunctional men.

kod 11y ago
No, social norms that - you're not allowed to show emotion (unless it's anger) - you must get all of your emotional needs met through first your mother, and then your girlfriend / wife are what creates dysfunctional men.
- Retric 11y ago
  As a tall, large framed man, I often get very strong negative reactions when I am physically fit. And I mean fit not weightlifting bulk. Keeping short hair and a clean shave while swimming regularly is a very utilitarian choice, but you get even stronger negative reactions. The way out? Growing long hair transformed rather negative skin head connotations with a far more teasing Fabio. Our culture really looks down on the strong male archetype. PS: Don't believe me? Try growing a natural aka full beard.
  - thomnottom 11y ago
    As someone with a full beard, a father who wears a full beard, and several friends with full beards, what is the problem with them?
    - Retric 11y ago
      For one thing it lowers the bar before people think your indigent. Depending on industry it can often make it harder to find a job. On the whole it's generally viewed as a low status symbol. Granted this is mostly from the east coast of the US (DC). And having a styled bearded seems to make a large difference.
      - thomnottom 11y ago
        All I can say is that I and my friends in the NYC and Philly region working (mostly) in pharmaceutical and financial industries do not generally experience this. But obviously that would be anecdotal.
        moistgorilla 11y ago
        > financial Isn't finance the place where being clean shaven is almost necessary if you want to succeed?
        remarkEon 11y ago
        -> almost necessary Required. I'm in graduate school right now and you won't get a call back for 2nd rounds if you have a beard. It's some sort of irrational proxy for discipline.
        Nadya 11y ago
        This is going to sound worse than I mean it to be, but I'm not familiar with NYC. Is Philly a "hipster" region? A full (groomed) beard in SanFran will be seen completely differently than full (groomed) beard in Los Angeles. You'll fit right in with the SF hipsters but you'll be seen as a bum/idiot in LA. There is a drastic difference in perception against say.. the Dollar Beard Club [0] and "manly-men" beards. The difference in perception is a source of comedy [1]. The source of this perception difference is that people "allowed" to grow beards for work were/are typically blue-collar workers. Blue-collar work is associated with those of lesser intelligence (sorry to any hard working blue-collars out there....) while white-collar professions are seen as "more intelligent" and have typically required being clean shaven. As it follows, facial hair = blue collar worker = less intelligent. That's just how things are currently. Obviously this is changing, but more-so in "hipster" areas where people do white-collar work and grow their beards out. As the requirement/stigma against facial hair dies out. [0] https://www.dollarbeardclub.com/ https://www.dollarbeardclub.com/ [1] http://www.primalunleashed.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/10458871_10152170006550108_7588909318375872464_n.jpg http://www.primalunleashed.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/...
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    I think this depends strongly on where you are. I'm in the southeast, here a shaved (or nearly shaved) head and a full beard (if the guy can grow it, goatees otherwise) are incredibly common, and (mostly) disjoint from the skinhead crowd.
- AngrySkillzz 11y ago
  It could be both; that when young men have "traditional masculinity" exposed as bullshit (which I agree with) and pulled out from under them, they have difficulty understanding themselves in a world without such a framing device.
  - ps4fanboy 11y ago
    That statement is no more ridiculous than calling femininity bullshit, why are you so hateful.
  - remarkEon 11y ago
    What is "traditional masculinity" and why is it bullshit? I ask because it seems this is going to end up as some kind of no-true-scotsman.
    - thelastguy 11y ago
      "Traditional masculinity" is the kind of masculinity that have enabled humanity to survived for millions of years. It includes traits such as: - Protecting women and children - Not crying when a tiger attack - Attacking the tiger instead, and to do so, requires - Forming a group of hunters, to go and kill that tiger, aka leadership - This also requires some amount of muscles, and aggression - because you can't kill a tiger with love and passivity - Declaring war on other men who want to rape your wife and daughter - Not wanting to, but having to fight wars against other group of men who want to rape your wife and daughter - Letting your son fight, and practice fighting with friend, so that they can defend themselves against enemies, who want to rape your wife and daughters, and... tigers, who wants to eat your wife and daughters - Also, if a tiger attacks, the brother has to save the sister, and if necessary, sacrifices himself to make sure the sister survives - Most important of all, a guy must be able to acquire resources in some form (food, woods, money, cows, etc) to provide for his family (without complaining, whining, crying, or any other emo bullshit that doesn't help him in his goal of acquiring resources) - etc. etc. You know. The traditional traits that a woman look for in a man. Obviously, as we have found out, these traits are bullshit and toxic and men MUST get rid of these traits that helped humanity survived for millions of years, because, like they said, they're all toxic.
- FilterSweep 11y ago
  You're oversimplifying "social norms" to the point where you completely neglect the emotional outlets that males DO use. Outlets (like male-only spaces for one, or sports, for another) that have been demonized by those same people who create this generalized talking point. Many of our boys have lost that outlet. Or don't even know it exists anymore.
- Cthulhu_ 11y ago
  And the current anti-men fad the article speaks about is only enforcing that, only extending it with "You're not allowed to have an opinion because you are a (white) (non-transsexual) (straight) man. The SJW movement isn't making the world a better place, it's trying to take political correctness to its extremes, which is its own form of oppression with the side-effects of people in certain demographics becoming afraid to speak up (see article).
- forgottenpass 11y ago
  [...] are what creates dysfunctional men. Even if we posit what you say is true, there are no alternate expression and communication toolboxes presented as a set of life skills. The only thing society has offered are signals that society wants men to cry more, and only in the situations they're socially cued to cry. The comment you're replying to says "Masculinity is not something to be feared or ashamed of, teaching that is what creates dysfunctional men." What other impression do you expect men to get when they're told the problem with masculinity is that it's too masculine? For them to act LESS stoic? Is society going to accept with open arms an entirely new form of expression? Especially when the people who fancy themselves able to understand the problems with masculinity cue men to be more stoic while pretending to want the opposite. (The more degenerate form of it from people that get all their philosophy from blogs with Fox News levels of bullshit even has a cute little hastagh for it #MasculinitySoFragile)
  - vlehto 11y ago
    There was recent article on some big media house about transplant uterus implanted into woman. And she delivered a healthy baby. There was some hint that completely artificial uterus could be possibility in the future. The shitstorm from women was huge. "Think about the children not adopted." It's illogical argument, made for logical reasons. Young women are potential mothers, then they are mothers, and then they get to be grandmothers. That's their special value to society and their privileges are based on that capability. When someone hint's about losing that special status, women get really defensive. It's easy to joke about fragility of masculinity, when status of femininity is hard coded to bodies of women. Women talk about femininity a lot, but they have not had to really question it yet. That being said, humor seems to be so integral part of masculinity that it's only fitting to laugh about it.