4 ms·

So doing it on your own rather than under orders is fine? If mark stone just wanted a shag and kept things from his superiors then this would be OK?

jacquesm 11y ago
If Mark Stone had a relationship with a woman outside of his profession then he should be entirely free to do whatever he wants, within the limits of what that particular society feels is acceptable. The fact that he's doing this as a deception at the orders of his boss makes this relationship a-symmetrical and causes the lady to lose a number of years that she'll never have back and will likely cause her grave trust issues for many years to come. The fact that it lasted for 6 whole years makes it a lot worse. How big a chunk of someone's life wasted is 'acceptable damage'? 10? 50? All of it? You don't mess with people like that, especially not when you're nominally tasked with protecting people. Pretending to be someone else as a private individual would be deplorable behavior, setting this up as a government institution makes it actionable and in my opinion this sort of operation should be illegal unless there is a very clear and very present danger related to that particular person, I see no evidence of that. Note that the lady was never charged with anything whatsoever, she was simply used as a tool for a substantial chunk of her life and then discarded the moment the game was up.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  She would lose 6 years and trust issues if he were a private actor also. Again - would this be OK if he just wanted a shag while undercover and his bosses were unaware? If not, then the boss thing is a red herring. Is sending a sexy lady cop go seduce anti-gay terrorists also unacceptable? Particularly if it turned out that they weren't actually gay bashing but instead just protesting gay weddings, pushing employers to fire gay employees, and other assholeish but legal behavior?
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > She would lose 6 years and trust issues if he were a private actor also. Yes, and that would be a very bad thing. > Again - would this be OK if he just wanted a shag while undercover and his bosses were unaware? He's an undercover cop, what his bosses are or are not aware of is immaterial. He's on 'company time' so to speak and if he does things while on 'company time' when interacting with people the company tasked him to interact with and he does not tell them about it that does not absolve them, especially not if that lasts for 6 years. That would make them dangerously incompetent if they weren't aware of it. > Is sending a sexy lady cop go seduce anti-gay terrorists also unacceptable? To seduce them per-se: absolutely not acceptable, especially not if she sexy lady cop is the one taking the initiative. To gather evidence: to pretend to be their friend (not to seduce them) for a limited time, maybe, if the crimes those people are engaged in are serious enough and that is the only way that evidence can be gathered. A police officer being ordered by their superior to have sex with a subject is already crossing a whole pile of lines. After all, the police is supposedly there to serve the public, not to get off on the public. > Particularly if it turned out that they weren't actually gay bashing but instead just protesting gay weddings, pushing employers to fire gay employees, and other assholeish but legal behavior? See above. It's all about proportionality.
    - blfr 11y ago
      What if he was a salesman seducing women on the job using the nice company car. Perhaps leveraging requirements of his job to maintain more than one relationship. Would the company employing him be responsible for the loss of (reproductive?) years then?
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        I highly doubt a salesman seducing women 'on the job' using the nice company car would be able to create an alternative identity good enough to pass immigration inspection on holidays and so on. The fact that this dude had the power of the government behind him is what allowed him to pull it off in the first place and why it lasted as long as it did. If she had not found the passport if would have continued even longer. Depending on the jurisdiction such impersonation could be a crime all by itself.
- qrendel 11y ago
  The odd part is it seems like the guy enjoyed the work enough to maintain it even after he stopped being a police officer. From the article, it seems he actually went out of his way to resign the police force when they were going to move him into another position, and then found another company who would pay him to continue his undercover role. > His covert mission was terminated in October 2009 when he was summoned by his handlers to a meeting at an anonymous truckstop. > In January 2010, he mysteriously reappeared. What Lisa and the other campaigners did not know at that time was that Kennedy was quitting the police to avoid being assigned to a humdrum desk job. But he had not discarded his fictional persona of “Mark Stone”, and continued to be involved in political campaigns. He has admitted that he was employed by a clandestine private security firm that was paid by commercial firms to monitor protesters. Presumably this wasn't just due to his desire for the relationship itself, since he could have simply resigned the police force and continued the relationship without being an undercover operative.

jacquesm 11y ago

If Mark Stone had a relationship with a woman outside of his profession then he should be entirely free to do whatever he wants, within the limits of what that particular society feels is acceptable. The fact that he's doing this as a deception at the orders of his boss makes this relationship a-symmetrical and causes the lady to lose a number of years that she'll never have back and will likely cause her grave trust issues for many years to come. The fact that it lasted for 6 whole years makes it a lot worse. How big a chunk of someone's life wasted is 'acceptable damage'? 10? 50? All of it? You don't mess with people like that, especially not when you're nominally tasked with protecting people. Pretending to be someone else as a private individual would be deplorable behavior, setting this up as a government institution makes it actionable and in my opinion this sort of operation should be illegal unless there is a very clear and very present danger related to that particular person, I see no evidence of that. Note that the lady was never charged with anything whatsoever, she was simply used as a tool for a substantial chunk of her life and then discarded the moment the game was up.

yummyfajitas 11y ago
She would lose 6 years and trust issues if he were a private actor also. Again - would this be OK if he just wanted a shag while undercover and his bosses were unaware? If not, then the boss thing is a red herring. Is sending a sexy lady cop go seduce anti-gay terrorists also unacceptable? Particularly if it turned out that they weren't actually gay bashing but instead just protesting gay weddings, pushing employers to fire gay employees, and other assholeish but legal behavior?
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > She would lose 6 years and trust issues if he were a private actor also. Yes, and that would be a very bad thing. > Again - would this be OK if he just wanted a shag while undercover and his bosses were unaware? He's an undercover cop, what his bosses are or are not aware of is immaterial. He's on 'company time' so to speak and if he does things while on 'company time' when interacting with people the company tasked him to interact with and he does not tell them about it that does not absolve them, especially not if that lasts for 6 years. That would make them dangerously incompetent if they weren't aware of it. > Is sending a sexy lady cop go seduce anti-gay terrorists also unacceptable? To seduce them per-se: absolutely not acceptable, especially not if she sexy lady cop is the one taking the initiative. To gather evidence: to pretend to be their friend (not to seduce them) for a limited time, maybe, if the crimes those people are engaged in are serious enough and that is the only way that evidence can be gathered. A police officer being ordered by their superior to have sex with a subject is already crossing a whole pile of lines. After all, the police is supposedly there to serve the public, not to get off on the public. > Particularly if it turned out that they weren't actually gay bashing but instead just protesting gay weddings, pushing employers to fire gay employees, and other assholeish but legal behavior? See above. It's all about proportionality.
  - blfr 11y ago
    What if he was a salesman seducing women on the job using the nice company car. Perhaps leveraging requirements of his job to maintain more than one relationship. Would the company employing him be responsible for the loss of (reproductive?) years then?
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      I highly doubt a salesman seducing women 'on the job' using the nice company car would be able to create an alternative identity good enough to pass immigration inspection on holidays and so on. The fact that this dude had the power of the government behind him is what allowed him to pull it off in the first place and why it lasted as long as it did. If she had not found the passport if would have continued even longer. Depending on the jurisdiction such impersonation could be a crime all by itself.
qrendel 11y ago
The odd part is it seems like the guy enjoyed the work enough to maintain it even after he stopped being a police officer. From the article, it seems he actually went out of his way to resign the police force when they were going to move him into another position, and then found another company who would pay him to continue his undercover role. > His covert mission was terminated in October 2009 when he was summoned by his handlers to a meeting at an anonymous truckstop. > In January 2010, he mysteriously reappeared. What Lisa and the other campaigners did not know at that time was that Kennedy was quitting the police to avoid being assigned to a humdrum desk job. But he had not discarded his fictional persona of “Mark Stone”, and continued to be involved in political campaigns. He has admitted that he was employed by a clandestine private security firm that was paid by commercial firms to monitor protesters. Presumably this wasn't just due to his desire for the relationship itself, since he could have simply resigned the police force and continued the relationship without being an undercover operative.