4 ms·

These are some very valid points. But. The situation depends on the nature of the threat and how correct the police were in their assessment. This woman's envir

These are some very valid points. But. The situation depends on the nature of the threat and how correct the police were in their assessment. This woman's environmental activist group wasn't exactly ISIS, but it's not hard to imagine groups that are much worse. If pretending to be in love with someone is deemed to be the best way to infiltrate them, the question becomes "Is it worth the risk of ruining someone's life in order to save the lives of others?" I don't think there's a clear answer, like the "do you push one person in front of a train to save three other people?" question. It's unfortunate that this happened to her, and she should definitely be compensated. As to whether or not the police should continue these tactics, everything involves tradeoffs and most things are best decided on a case by case basis.

jacquesm 11y ago
> Is it worth the risk of ruining someone's life in order to save the lives of others? I don't see any lives saved here, only a life ruined. So sure, let's do this on a 'case-by-case' basis. This is the case we're looking at.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  A "case by case basis" is just a code word for "let's protect people we identify or sympathize with". The attractive white lady, sure - the fat black asshole, not so much.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    Wow, how many things can you get wrong in one sentence. No, on a case-by-case basis does not mean 'let's protect people we identify or sympathize with' that's your words, not mine. It means: when looking at these cases we look at each of them individually and try to decide whether or not the good outweighed the bad, it does not say anything about the gender, the attractiveness, the skin color, the weight or the general disposition of the person involved. You added those things, for no apparent reason.
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      Case by case basis is a way to avoid stating clear principles that might apply to someone we dislike. It's a sign that our reasoning is flawed and our (racist, sexist, ugly-ist, etc) emotions are driving our decisions. Applying principles is a way to force ourselves to either make unbiased (or less biased) decisions, or to acknowledge and codify them (e.g. "my principle is that black people = 3/5"). Of course, acknowledging and codifying them makes their horribleness pretty obvious...
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        I'm more than happy to extract clear principles from a number of cases. But this is the case we have and it has nothing to do with me liking or disliking this particular lady. I note that: if the case had been reversed and the operative had been a female and the victim a male I would not see the case in any different light. If the person had been black (which I have no idea about, they might be for all I know) or white, or any other skin color it would not make me feel any different. If they had been ugly or pretty it would not make a difference (again, I don't know what she looks like). And finally, if they were assholes in general or sweet personalities I'd not make any difference about it. What would make a difference is whether or not there was any actual suspicion about this person and whether or not this person was charged with some crime, which is what the case-by-case referred to. The rest you simply made up. Absent some grave danger that we are currently not aware of I really see absolutely no reason why a government operative would engage in a multi-year exclusive partner-level relationship involving sex with another person under false pretenses.
    - karmacondon 11y ago
      I don't know what yummyfajitas is saying with the "case by case" thing, but your outrage does seem to be a bit misplaced. On the scale of Bad Things Cops Have Done In The Last Six Years, pretending to be someone's boyfriend seems pretty insignificant. Cops in America will shoot a black teenager just for walking down the street (literally). That's the loss of someone's entire life, not just six years of it. In fact, police frequently kill innocent people of all races due to misunderstandings or with stray bullets. It is unfortunate, but we all understand that it happens. It is possible that you would be equally eloquent in your deridement of police procedures if those stories were on the homepage of hackernews. But I doubt it.
vacri 11y ago
> "Is it worth the risk of ruining someone's life in order to save the lives of others?" If they have evidence of a plot, then they can act on that. But there is no right for police to fuck up someone's life on the suspicion that they might do something (and in this case, something non-specific).
- personlurking 11y ago
  And more so, what is gained by having a relationship with Lisa versus merely infiltrating the group of friends on a long-term basis?
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    I can see how being someone's boyfriend automatically comes with a higher trust level. But at the same time there really should be restrictions on the kind and severity of the invasiveness of undercover operations. You'd hope for some proportionality to the risks involved and this lady does not strike me as particularly risk-full with the data available, especially not if after 6 years of involvement they never found anything whatsoever to charge her with.

jacquesm 11y ago

> Is it worth the risk of ruining someone's life in order to save the lives of others? I don't see any lives saved here, only a life ruined. So sure, let's do this on a 'case-by-case' basis. This is the case we're looking at.

yummyfajitas 11y ago
A "case by case basis" is just a code word for "let's protect people we identify or sympathize with". The attractive white lady, sure - the fat black asshole, not so much.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Wow, how many things can you get wrong in one sentence. No, on a case-by-case basis does not mean 'let's protect people we identify or sympathize with' that's your words, not mine. It means: when looking at these cases we look at each of them individually and try to decide whether or not the good outweighed the bad, it does not say anything about the gender, the attractiveness, the skin color, the weight or the general disposition of the person involved. You added those things, for no apparent reason.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    Case by case basis is a way to avoid stating clear principles that might apply to someone we dislike. It's a sign that our reasoning is flawed and our (racist, sexist, ugly-ist, etc) emotions are driving our decisions. Applying principles is a way to force ourselves to either make unbiased (or less biased) decisions, or to acknowledge and codify them (e.g. "my principle is that black people = 3/5"). Of course, acknowledging and codifying them makes their horribleness pretty obvious...
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      I'm more than happy to extract clear principles from a number of cases. But this is the case we have and it has nothing to do with me liking or disliking this particular lady. I note that: if the case had been reversed and the operative had been a female and the victim a male I would not see the case in any different light. If the person had been black (which I have no idea about, they might be for all I know) or white, or any other skin color it would not make me feel any different. If they had been ugly or pretty it would not make a difference (again, I don't know what she looks like). And finally, if they were assholes in general or sweet personalities I'd not make any difference about it. What would make a difference is whether or not there was any actual suspicion about this person and whether or not this person was charged with some crime, which is what the case-by-case referred to. The rest you simply made up. Absent some grave danger that we are currently not aware of I really see absolutely no reason why a government operative would engage in a multi-year exclusive partner-level relationship involving sex with another person under false pretenses.
  - karmacondon 11y ago
    I don't know what yummyfajitas is saying with the "case by case" thing, but your outrage does seem to be a bit misplaced. On the scale of Bad Things Cops Have Done In The Last Six Years, pretending to be someone's boyfriend seems pretty insignificant. Cops in America will shoot a black teenager just for walking down the street (literally). That's the loss of someone's entire life, not just six years of it. In fact, police frequently kill innocent people of all races due to misunderstandings or with stray bullets. It is unfortunate, but we all understand that it happens. It is possible that you would be equally eloquent in your deridement of police procedures if those stories were on the homepage of hackernews. But I doubt it.

vacri 11y ago

> "Is it worth the risk of ruining someone's life in order to save the lives of others?" If they have evidence of a plot, then they can act on that. But there is no right for police to fuck up someone's life on the suspicion that they might do something (and in this case, something non-specific).

personlurking 11y ago
And more so, what is gained by having a relationship with Lisa versus merely infiltrating the group of friends on a long-term basis?
- jacquesm 11y ago
  I can see how being someone's boyfriend automatically comes with a higher trust level. But at the same time there really should be restrictions on the kind and severity of the invasiveness of undercover operations. You'd hope for some proportionality to the risks involved and this lady does not strike me as particularly risk-full with the data available, especially not if after 6 years of involvement they never found anything whatsoever to charge her with.