6 ms·

State-sponsored rape. Both the officer and the head of the program should go to jail for this.

by erdojo 11y ago

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
DaWeasel 11y ago
How is that rape ?
- evincarofautumn 11y ago
  I don’t agree with this reasoning, but you could argue that she consented to a relationship with Mark Stone, and not Mark Kennedy.
  - J-dawg 11y ago
    If the Gayle Newland case [1] is rape, then the Mark Stone / Mark Kennedy case should be too. I don't know whether either should be considered as rape, I'm just amazed how inconsistent the law can be. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-34901925 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-34901925
    - DaWeasel 11y ago
      What about witness protection then ? I lie about my identity so me having sex with anybody is a rape ? Even if they agreed to have sex with me after they've learn to know me ?
- YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
  The man she was having sex with was not the man she consented to have sex with.
  - enkephalin 11y ago
    when i'm drunk and meet women, i'm definitely not the man they think i am, due the profound effect alcohol has on my self esteem, social anxiety, and charisma.
  - emerongi 11y ago
    Yes it was. When he was with her, he was Mark Stone. Mark Stone might not share very many characteristics with Mark Kennedy - who lived a totally different life. She consented to have sex with him, that's it. No, it's not right, but it's definitely not rape either. Calling it rape is just wrong and does injustice to real rape victims.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
      >> When he was with her, he was Mark Stone. More accurately, he was Mark Kennedy pretending to be someone called Mark Stone. Saying he was Mark Stone didn't magically make him Mark Stone. >> She consented to have sex with him, that's it. Because she didn't know he was an undercover policeman. He obtained her consent by abusing his authority as a police officer. His superiors also abused their authority by ordering or permitting this to happen. They took away her ability to make an informed decision about whether she wanted to enter into a sexual relationship with that man.
nothrabannosir 11y ago
For the life of me I can't find a link anymore, nor can I remember which western country this was in. Forgive this unsourced story. A while ago there was a lawsuit: a woman had accused a man of raping her, when she found out he did not have magical healing powers. He had convinced her that sleeping with him would cure her of an ailment she had, and she had believed him. The judge ruled: immoral, but not rape. Rape is about lack of consent. Gullible people being tricked into consensual sex is bad, but it needs a new word, because rape is already taken. And it would be great if we could leave that definition alone, for the sake of everybody.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  How is she gullible? The government set up a person with a fake identity and pretty much tasked them to become involved with this person. Regardless of what word you wish to use to indicate this crime I think calling her gullible is a bit much, in fact it blames her for a part of this which I think is entirely the wrong reaction.
  - nothrabannosir 11y ago
    Good point, Id edit and remove that if I could. I shouldn't have said that; I meant it in reference to the other case and forgot how it would look in this context.
fab13n 11y ago
By calling everything and anything rape, one debases the word's meaning, and the claims of actual rape victims. Words have meaning, and rape is forcing someone to have sex with you when they don't want to have sex with you. She wanted to have sex with him, although he deceived her about some of his key features. Is it rape when one discovers afterwards that their partner is a closet alcoholic? No it isn't. What about if they're chronically unfaithful? Neither. If a golddigger has sex with someone who made them falsely believe they were rich, the former hasn't been raped, merely deceived. Even if they're HIV+, it's not rape. It might be poisoning, or homicide attempt, it certainly is awful and punishable, but it's not rape. Concealing that you're a cop on duty is despicable and might be (at least ought to be) illegal, but rape it isn't; pretending otherwise is unhelpful and insulting to rape victims.
- DanBC 11y ago
  > forcing No, rape is sex without consent. Force isn't required for something to be rape.
  - Natanael_L 11y ago
    Then this would rather be fraud, because consent was given but based on deceitful information
    - danlindley 11y ago
      Actually, consent for sexual intercourse obtained through lies or deceipt is unequivocally considered rape in common law.
      - fab13n 11y ago
        Can you provide a source? I'd be surprised if, for instance, seducing someone and getting laid by pretending to be substantially wealthier than you are was considered rape. Even pretending that you aren't a convicted felon when you are one would probably not constitute rape. I'd also be surprised if a woman who lied about being a virgin (and maybe had hymenoplasty) was prosecuted as a rapist by her devout husband. My guess would be that it's considered rape if the deception made the victim believe they had to have intercourse with the liar. If the lie merely made the liar more desirable, it's (possibly unethical) seduction. This hypothesis would mean, to come back to the original case, that: * telling you're not a cop when you actually are one is not rape; * telling that you're a cop when you aren't, and hitting that a sexual favor would buy you some leniency, does constitute rape.
tedks 11y ago
It's disgusting how many rape apologists turn out on hacker news when things like this get brought up. Don't for a second think that just because you can hide your rape apologism in some veneer of academic debate-club discourse, it's less disgusting and tangibly harmful. Here's some background: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/xf5c2/reddit_are_you_aware_how_dangerous_the_askarapist/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/xf5c2/reddit_are... Events like these are the most tangible expression of how bald-faced a lie the whole ~feminist-tech-community~ thing was. If Paul Graham supported women in technology, he wouldn't provide a platform for rape apologism. (Replying to the comment parent because I don't want to dignify any rape apologists with replies and also to thank the comment parent for being brave enough to call this the way it is.)
tomp 11y ago
Do you call the situation when you find out that the woman you just slept with has fake boobs and makeup, also rape?
mattlutze 11y ago
Lying about who you are isn't rape. For the FBI[0], at least, rape is defined as: “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." Telling your potential partner that you're an astronaut or a surgeon does not make you a rapist. Suggesting otherwise is dangerous to social progress in the fair legal treatment of women, children and other targeted groups. 0: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/new-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates...
- erdojo 11y ago
  She didn't consent to sleep with him. She was targeted and tricked by a government. It's such a betrayal by a government who is supposed to protect us that I can't even fathom it. They stole her trust. There was no proof she herself was a criminal. There were no charges. No warrants.
mattlutze 11y ago
Lying about who you are isn't rape. For the FBI[0], at least, rape is defined as: “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." Telling your potential partner that you're an astronaut or a surgeon does not make you a rapist. It's distasteful and immoral, but not rape. Suggesting otherwise is dangerous to social progress in the fair legal treatment of women, children and other targeted groups. 0: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/new-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates...
- DanBC 11y ago
  This is the UK, not the US, and there's a case already posted to this thread of someone lying about who they were and being convicted of rape.
  - mattlutze 11y ago
    Quite right -- in English law I guess it's all about the interpretation and determination of "consent" [0]: > 'A person consents if they agree by choice, and have the freedom and capacity to make that choice'. An unfortunately interesting example where a small difference can have a major effect. I think I should have made it an opinion and said "should not" instead of "does not". Thought I can understand the argument that feeling deceived can also lead to anguish, so I understand where there was logic in the way it's been written in the UK (and perhaps also interpreted in the US). 0: http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Definitions/1400008450549/1400008450549 http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Definitions/14000084505...
- rmc 11y ago
  The important section is "without the consent". If the victim consents to sex with someone who is X, Y or Z, and you tell them you are that and you're not, then that can count as rape.
  - mattlutze 11y ago

State-sponsored rape. Both the officer and the head of the program should go to jail for this.

by erdojo 11y ago

State-sponsored rape. Both the officer and the head of the program should go to jail for this.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

DaWeasel 11y ago

How is that rape ?

evincarofautumn 11y ago
I don’t agree with this reasoning, but you could argue that she consented to a relationship with Mark Stone, and not Mark Kennedy.
- J-dawg 11y ago
  If the Gayle Newland case [1] is rape, then the Mark Stone / Mark Kennedy case should be too. I don't know whether either should be considered as rape, I'm just amazed how inconsistent the law can be. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-34901925 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-34901925
  - DaWeasel 11y ago
    What about witness protection then ? I lie about my identity so me having sex with anybody is a rape ? Even if they agreed to have sex with me after they've learn to know me ?
YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
The man she was having sex with was not the man she consented to have sex with.
- enkephalin 11y ago
  when i'm drunk and meet women, i'm definitely not the man they think i am, due the profound effect alcohol has on my self esteem, social anxiety, and charisma.
- emerongi 11y ago
  Yes it was. When he was with her, he was Mark Stone. Mark Stone might not share very many characteristics with Mark Kennedy - who lived a totally different life. She consented to have sex with him, that's it. No, it's not right, but it's definitely not rape either. Calling it rape is just wrong and does injustice to real rape victims.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
    >> When he was with her, he was Mark Stone. More accurately, he was Mark Kennedy pretending to be someone called Mark Stone. Saying he was Mark Stone didn't magically make him Mark Stone. >> She consented to have sex with him, that's it. Because she didn't know he was an undercover policeman. He obtained her consent by abusing his authority as a police officer. His superiors also abused their authority by ordering or permitting this to happen. They took away her ability to make an informed decision about whether she wanted to enter into a sexual relationship with that man.

nothrabannosir 11y ago

For the life of me I can't find a link anymore, nor can I remember which western country this was in. Forgive this unsourced story. A while ago there was a lawsuit: a woman had accused a man of raping her, when she found out he did not have magical healing powers. He had convinced her that sleeping with him would cure her of an ailment she had, and she had believed him. The judge ruled: immoral, but not rape. Rape is about lack of consent. Gullible people being tricked into consensual sex is bad, but it needs a new word, because rape is already taken. And it would be great if we could leave that definition alone, for the sake of everybody.

jacquesm 11y ago
How is she gullible? The government set up a person with a fake identity and pretty much tasked them to become involved with this person. Regardless of what word you wish to use to indicate this crime I think calling her gullible is a bit much, in fact it blames her for a part of this which I think is entirely the wrong reaction.
- nothrabannosir 11y ago
  Good point, Id edit and remove that if I could. I shouldn't have said that; I meant it in reference to the other case and forgot how it would look in this context.

fab13n 11y ago

By calling everything and anything rape, one debases the word's meaning, and the claims of actual rape victims. Words have meaning, and rape is forcing someone to have sex with you when they don't want to have sex with you. She wanted to have sex with him, although he deceived her about some of his key features. Is it rape when one discovers afterwards that their partner is a closet alcoholic? No it isn't. What about if they're chronically unfaithful? Neither. If a golddigger has sex with someone who made them falsely believe they were rich, the former hasn't been raped, merely deceived. Even if they're HIV+, it's not rape. It might be poisoning, or homicide attempt, it certainly is awful and punishable, but it's not rape. Concealing that you're a cop on duty is despicable and might be (at least ought to be) illegal, but rape it isn't; pretending otherwise is unhelpful and insulting to rape victims.

DanBC 11y ago
> forcing No, rape is sex without consent. Force isn't required for something to be rape.
- Natanael_L 11y ago
  Then this would rather be fraud, because consent was given but based on deceitful information
  - danlindley 11y ago
    Actually, consent for sexual intercourse obtained through lies or deceipt is unequivocally considered rape in common law.
    - fab13n 11y ago
      Can you provide a source? I'd be surprised if, for instance, seducing someone and getting laid by pretending to be substantially wealthier than you are was considered rape. Even pretending that you aren't a convicted felon when you are one would probably not constitute rape. I'd also be surprised if a woman who lied about being a virgin (and maybe had hymenoplasty) was prosecuted as a rapist by her devout husband. My guess would be that it's considered rape if the deception made the victim believe they had to have intercourse with the liar. If the lie merely made the liar more desirable, it's (possibly unethical) seduction. This hypothesis would mean, to come back to the original case, that: * telling you're not a cop when you actually are one is not rape; * telling that you're a cop when you aren't, and hitting that a sexual favor would buy you some leniency, does constitute rape.

tedks 11y ago

It's disgusting how many rape apologists turn out on hacker news when things like this get brought up. Don't for a second think that just because you can hide your rape apologism in some veneer of academic debate-club discourse, it's less disgusting and tangibly harmful. Here's some background: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/xf5c2/reddit_are_you_aware_how_dangerous_the_askarapist/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/xf5c2/reddit_are... Events like these are the most tangible expression of how bald-faced a lie the whole ~feminist-tech-community~ thing was. If Paul Graham supported women in technology, he wouldn't provide a platform for rape apologism. (Replying to the comment parent because I don't want to dignify any rape apologists with replies and also to thank the comment parent for being brave enough to call this the way it is.)

tomp 11y ago

Do you call the situation when you find out that the woman you just slept with has fake boobs and makeup, also rape?

mattlutze 11y ago

Lying about who you are isn't rape. For the FBI[0], at least, rape is defined as: “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." Telling your potential partner that you're an astronaut or a surgeon does not make you a rapist. Suggesting otherwise is dangerous to social progress in the fair legal treatment of women, children and other targeted groups. 0: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/new-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates...

erdojo 11y ago
She didn't consent to sleep with him. She was targeted and tricked by a government. It's such a betrayal by a government who is supposed to protect us that I can't even fathom it. They stole her trust. There was no proof she herself was a criminal. There were no charges. No warrants.

mattlutze 11y ago

Lying about who you are isn't rape. For the FBI[0], at least, rape is defined as: “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." Telling your potential partner that you're an astronaut or a surgeon does not make you a rapist. It's distasteful and immoral, but not rape. Suggesting otherwise is dangerous to social progress in the fair legal treatment of women, children and other targeted groups. 0: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/new-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates...

DanBC 11y ago
This is the UK, not the US, and there's a case already posted to this thread of someone lying about who they were and being convicted of rape.
- mattlutze 11y ago
  Quite right -- in English law I guess it's all about the interpretation and determination of "consent" [0]: > 'A person consents if they agree by choice, and have the freedom and capacity to make that choice'. An unfortunately interesting example where a small difference can have a major effect. I think I should have made it an opinion and said "should not" instead of "does not". Thought I can understand the argument that feeling deceived can also lead to anguish, so I understand where there was logic in the way it's been written in the UK (and perhaps also interpreted in the US). 0: http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Definitions/1400008450549/1400008450549 http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Definitions/14000084505...
rmc 11y ago
The important section is "without the consent". If the victim consents to sex with someone who is X, Y or Z, and you tell them you are that and you're not, then that can count as rape.
- mattlutze 11y ago