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Designers don't like programming? Most web designers I know want to know more about programming and jump at the opportunity to learn. Can you provide references

by jlong 17y ago

Designers don't like programming? Most web designers I know want to know more about programming and jump at the opportunity to learn. Can you provide references or articles to back up your assertion?

tjogin 17y ago
Most designers aren't programmers — they're designers.
- jlong 17y ago
  Web designers? Again, to be good at web design you have to develop many of the same skills as programmers. Debugging CSS/HTML is about the same as debugging code.
  - tjogin 17y ago
    Debugging a turing-complete full-fledged programming language is the same as debugging markup? Interesting. I thought the whole point of Sass, the topic of this discussion, was to introduce more powerful programming concepts to CSS? So which is it, is CSS already as powerful a tool as a programming language thus making Sass completely useless, or does it lack the capabilities of a real programming language, thus making it much easier for designers to use with proficiency?
    - jlong 17y ago
      Um, you are missing my point completely. CSS is not a programming language. However, when you are dealing with CSS related bugs in browsers a high level of determination and problem solving ability is required to get to the bottom of each bug. The same kind of determination is required to debug Ruby or Java or any other programming language. So the jump from competent web designer to programmer is not as far as you might think. They actually require a similar skillset.
      - tjogin 17y ago
        Programming is a left-brain endeavor, designing utilizes the right side of the brain. Enjoying one of these tasks does not mean you enjoy the other, and certainly not that you're any good at it. The reality is that most designers aren't also proficient programmers. And most programmers aren't also proficient designers. This is the cold hard truth that your Sass-pushing zealotry cannot overcome. Most designers simply aren't keen to learn to program, because the two things are drastically different things.
        jlong 17y ago
        I don't seem to be making any headway with you on this, so this will probably be my last reply on this thread. But I'm speaking as a professional web designer that has a programming background. I see a lot of correlation between the two. If we were talking strictly design (as in art) your point would hold a little more weight with me, but we are talking about web design. The skills that are required here are not that different from the skills that are required by a programmer. One is very visual it is true, but both require strong troubleshooting skills. I'm not sure about the whole left/right brain thing. I'm speaking from my experience of what it takes to be a good web designer. Is programming strictly a right brain activity? I hear a lot of talk about beauty and design in programming circles today. Clearly it is not all cold crisp logic. You aspire towards beauty and function just as much as designers do.
        tjogin 17y ago
        I know precisely what you mean. I'm just like you, well, almost. I'm a programmer who started in design. But we are exceptions — we are not the norm. The norm is that programmers like to program and designers like to design. Most programmers suck at design, and most designers hate programming. Sass is great for the relatively few of us who actually like to do both. But we are exceptions, not the norm, which is why Sass won't spell CSS's "demise" any time soon: most people who write CSS don't like to and don't want to program.
        jlong 17y ago
    - nex3 17y ago
      Most of the benefit of Sass lies in variables, mixins, and nesting. If there are any programming constructs, they're usually in the background, in library code. When there's debugging to be done, it's the same sort that's done for CSS: touching up styles and so forth. And in many ways Sass makes that sort of debugging much easier.
billybob 17y ago
"Most web designers I know want to know more about programming and jump at the opportunity to learn." Because they enjoy it, or because they want to advance in their career?
- jlong 17y ago
  I'm not sure what enjoyment has to do with it. In my opinion Web design requires a very similar skill set. Debugging CSS/HTML takes a programmer's mindset. It is not that difficult for most designers to make that jump. Many of them have picked up Javascript just fine.

by jlong 17y ago

Designers don't like programming? Most web designers I know want to know more about programming and jump at the opportunity to learn. Can you provide references or articles to back up your assertion?

tjogin 17y ago

Most designers aren't programmers — they're designers.

jlong 17y ago
Web designers? Again, to be good at web design you have to develop many of the same skills as programmers. Debugging CSS/HTML is about the same as debugging code.
- tjogin 17y ago
  Debugging a turing-complete full-fledged programming language is the same as debugging markup? Interesting. I thought the whole point of Sass, the topic of this discussion, was to introduce more powerful programming concepts to CSS? So which is it, is CSS already as powerful a tool as a programming language thus making Sass completely useless, or does it lack the capabilities of a real programming language, thus making it much easier for designers to use with proficiency?
  - jlong 17y ago
    Um, you are missing my point completely. CSS is not a programming language. However, when you are dealing with CSS related bugs in browsers a high level of determination and problem solving ability is required to get to the bottom of each bug. The same kind of determination is required to debug Ruby or Java or any other programming language. So the jump from competent web designer to programmer is not as far as you might think. They actually require a similar skillset.
    - tjogin 17y ago
      Programming is a left-brain endeavor, designing utilizes the right side of the brain. Enjoying one of these tasks does not mean you enjoy the other, and certainly not that you're any good at it. The reality is that most designers aren't also proficient programmers. And most programmers aren't also proficient designers. This is the cold hard truth that your Sass-pushing zealotry cannot overcome. Most designers simply aren't keen to learn to program, because the two things are drastically different things.
      - jlong 17y ago
        I don't seem to be making any headway with you on this, so this will probably be my last reply on this thread. But I'm speaking as a professional web designer that has a programming background. I see a lot of correlation between the two. If we were talking strictly design (as in art) your point would hold a little more weight with me, but we are talking about web design. The skills that are required here are not that different from the skills that are required by a programmer. One is very visual it is true, but both require strong troubleshooting skills. I'm not sure about the whole left/right brain thing. I'm speaking from my experience of what it takes to be a good web designer. Is programming strictly a right brain activity? I hear a lot of talk about beauty and design in programming circles today. Clearly it is not all cold crisp logic. You aspire towards beauty and function just as much as designers do.
        tjogin 17y ago
        I know precisely what you mean. I'm just like you, well, almost. I'm a programmer who started in design. But we are exceptions — we are not the norm. The norm is that programmers like to program and designers like to design. Most programmers suck at design, and most designers hate programming. Sass is great for the relatively few of us who actually like to do both. But we are exceptions, not the norm, which is why Sass won't spell CSS's "demise" any time soon: most people who write CSS don't like to and don't want to program.
        jlong 17y ago
  - nex3 17y ago
    Most of the benefit of Sass lies in variables, mixins, and nesting. If there are any programming constructs, they're usually in the background, in library code. When there's debugging to be done, it's the same sort that's done for CSS: touching up styles and so forth. And in many ways Sass makes that sort of debugging much easier.

billybob 17y ago

"Most web designers I know want to know more about programming and jump at the opportunity to learn." Because they enjoy it, or because they want to advance in their career?

jlong 17y ago
I'm not sure what enjoyment has to do with it. In my opinion Web design requires a very similar skill set. Debugging CSS/HTML takes a programmer's mindset. It is not that difficult for most designers to make that jump. Many of them have picked up Javascript just fine.