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Lets be more precise. It was shot down over Turkey territory (according to information provided by Turkey military). Of course one could argue that the plane w

Lets be more precise. It was shot down over Turkey territory (according to information provided by Turkey military). Of course one could argue that the plane was just taking a shortcut over the small part of Turkey territory. The problem with this is that Turkey has warned Russians on many occasions to not do that. But in my opinion it does not look like there was any threat to Turkey. In principle the Russians have become very cocky near all NATO borders, and Turks are the least PC NATO member, so one can say that Russians had it coming and it looks like they finally found their equally crazy nemesis. Anyway, the situation is alarming and it is not yet clear how the following actions would unroll. The first reaction from Putin does not make it look like Russia would admit their fault, but I think that he is rather reserved. My condolences go to the parents and relatives of the killed pilot. Edit: Changed two paragraphs, added one more paragraph. Edit2: It looks like Russians flew over Turkey territory towards their target zone (see the map provided in this thread) and then began to fly in circles over Turkey territory. They were shot at the second entry. I do not know why Russians choose this route as it does not seem to be the most optimal one. The length over Turkey territory is about 1500-1600 meters, SU-24 flies up to 360 m/s so it was about minimum 5 seconds flight, but as it was a second entry, I guess it does not matter that much. Anyway, I think that both sides acted in a very unwise manner.

Luc 11y ago
> Lets be correct. It was shot down over Turkey territory. How could you possible know enough to admonish people over this? We barely know the facts. Perhaps the plane never entered Turkish territory. Perhaps only for a few seconds. Maybe it was fired upon when it was already over Syria. Or maybe the rocket hit over Syria.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- eveningcoffee 11y ago
  I agree with you and I changed my comment to address these concerns.
  - Luc 11y ago
    Thanks, I appreciate it. It's amazing how much and how quickly we're getting information about this. I look forward to the Russian proof now, I wonder how it will compare. The Americans no doubt also had something watching the battlefield...
codingbeer 11y ago
According to the radar image released by Turkey, the aircraft passed over a strip of Turkey airspace around 2km wide. Apparently they gave the russian 10 warnings. That doesn't add up.
- Luc 11y ago
  > the aircraft passed over a strip of Turkey airspace around 2km wide. As in, it flew over 2km of Turkish airspace? At 2000 km/h ground speed, that would take 3.6 seconds. Perhaps 5 times as much if it was going as slow as possible.
- noselasd 11y ago
  How so - if the radar image is correct, the plane flew over the strip in Turkey twice, giving them quite a bit of time before and after the first pass to give warnings ?
- pimlottc 11y ago
  Turkey started warning the Russian plane before it had crossed the border: "In line with the military rules of engagement, the Turkish authorities repeatedly warned an unidentified aircraft that they were 15 kilometers or less away from the border"
  - tobiasu 11y ago
    Which is absurd, Turkey have zero rights to declare a no fly zone and shoot down planes in Syria. This isn't the first time either, they shot down plenty SyAF fighters and helicopters over Syria, it's just that nobody in the West cares.
    - Bud 11y ago
      Actually, Turkey has every right to defend its airspace, under international law.
      - saiya-jin 11y ago
jacquesm 11y ago
> It was shot down over Turkey territory. I can find absolutely no evidence for that at this time. It is possible this is correct but the plane definitely came down inside Syria. A lot will ride on where it was shot down so best not to make any claims that strong without equally strong evidence.
- ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
  Considering how narrow the Turkish strip of land is, I don't think where the pilot (and wreckage?) ended up means that's where the F-16s actually fired their missile.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    Precisely.
  - gort 11y ago
    Also, these planes travel fast enough that it could be fired upon while in Turkish airspace, but hit while in Syrian airspace. Or it could be hit while in Turkish airspace, but crash in Syrian territory. It supposedly came down 4 km inside Syrian territory, which is a tiny distance for a supersonic plane, which the Su-24 is.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      > It supposedly came down 4 km inside Syrian territory, which is a tiny distance for a supersonic plane, which the Su-24 is. There is quite a bit of conflicting information about this, some sources say 4, others say 40, some use miles, some kilometers.
Mikeb85 11y ago
No, Turkey's own radar readings that it showed to the press (that is being paraded around Twitter right now) shows it was shot in Syrian territory. It flew over a piece of Turkish territory a few km wide, and was well within Syrian airspace when the missile hit.
- Bud 11y ago
  The fact that it was back in Syrian airspace (if this is true) when the missile hit is, of course, immaterial. If the plane was over Turkish airspace when the missile was fired, Turkey was justified in protecting its airspace.
  - onnoonno 11y ago
    Is it? Do you have a reference to relevant international laws?
- eveningcoffee 11y ago
  I think that what matters first is when the missile was released and second that it was a recurring entry into Turkey airspace. I think that both sides acted in a very unwise manner. Edit: IANAL in international law of such concerns.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    Yes, of course. But based on the maps Turkey is showing as 'proof', their case is pretty thin. The Russian plane flew over a strip of land that is barely even visible on a map of Turkey, never mind when flying at 6000m (the reported height) at high speed. The incursion likely lasted a dozen seconds or less. Turkey was obviously looking for the engagement. This just reinforces what everyone already thinks, that Turkey is helping ISIS.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > This just reinforces what everyone already thinks, that Turkey is helping ISIS. Turkey is helping some of the people Russia is fighting, but the people Russia is fighting aren't just Daesh, but every entity operating in Syria that isn't Assad's regime.
tdkl 11y ago
> In principle the Russians have become very cocky near all NATO borders You mean cocky while West placing all those military bases near Russian borders ?
- eveningcoffee 11y ago
  West placing all those military bases near Russian borders ? You mean Russian neighbours trying their best to prepare against growing Russian threat (by what I mean direct official threats, massive military training operations near borders, increased forces near borders)? The West, when we talk about Western Europe, has constantly reduced their military by dismantling their tank armies, reducing their air force and not keeping their navy up to date with the mantra that Russia is not the enemy any more while Russia has done the opposite. I think you are just not being honest here. Edit: I do not claim that Russians are the only ones who have become too cocky, but definitely not Russian neighbours. PS. I wish that there is no need in the world to discuss these matters here or anywhere else.
  - tdkl 11y ago
    > growing Russian threat I see the western propaganda is still hard at work here. This allegedly growing threat just keeps growing every year and escalated to what ? While the wars mentioned in the article of this post was made by the west. The Western EU armies have been reduced only by turning them into a joke - they're active nowadays as NATO forces for abowe mentioned oil wars, while outer EU states can't keep the EU border intact and are flooded by people of unknown origin - until they arrive at their destination.
    - eveningcoffee 11y ago
      This allegedly growing threat just keeps growing every year and escalated to what I personally would hope that it would not escalate to anything but I think that your trying to ridicule it without any base. When there is growing threat from one side, then the opposing side (in the reasonable world) would try to counter the threat. In such way this game can continue indefinitely. I see the western propaganda is still hard at work here. I would like to hear your list of media sources (local and not local) that you consider to be non biased and in attempt to be honest. I am not sarcastic with this i.e. it is an actual request.
noselasd 11y ago
Hopefully the pilot made it though as a parachute was observed - http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/151124102631-russia-jet-syria-crash-6-super-169.jpg http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/151124102631-rus... (from this article: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/24/world/gallery/turkey-syria-russia-jet-crash/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/24/world/gallery/turkey-syria...)
- WalterSear 11y ago
  He was shot dead in his parachute and the rescue team was fired on.
mattlutze 11y ago
Sovereign territorial borders are no joke, there's no "we're just cutting a corner" when it comes to that line on the map. Particularly with the most recent Turkish national election turning out the way it did [1][0], a more conservative and nationally focused Turkish government would seem more likely to choose to enforce those borders if it thought they were violated. Much more troubling if it was, indeed, shot down outside of Turkey by mistake. And in any case, BBC is reporting that "a Turkmen brigade in Syria says [...] shot dead two pilots of the downed Russian jet as they descended with parachutes."[2] It's concerning that both sides have taken their respective actions. It's only going to exacerbate tenuous relationships with partner nation-states around the Syrian conflict. If Russia reacts aggressively, NATO-ally countries are treaty-bound to respond in support and defense of Turkey. I really hope both nations see how that increased stress is to no one's benefit and that Russia takes the mature and humble road of deescalation... 0: http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21677461-president-erdogan-back-drivers-seat-huge-win-turkeyu2019s-ruling-ak-party http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21677461-president-erdo... 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_November_2015#Overall_results https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_Nove... 2: http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-34908469 http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-34908469
- eveningcoffee 11y ago
  To further develop this with respect to my initial comment, there is nothing unusual in Russian pilots behavior (i.e. in connecting corners). They have done it constantly near their direct neighbours and also in Syria. I do not know why they are doing this i.e. do they do this from ignorance or does it come from their display of disrespect and superiority but I have seen many people to forecast that when they continue to do this with Turkey, it will end up with a shotdown. It does not follow that I agree with Turkeys actions. I think that it was very irresponsible, but I am not overly surprised either. I just wish that it had not happened.
polack 11y ago
The Russians did it only to provoke and to test the response times of the Turks, just like NATO does every day to other countries. This is not something you shoot down a jet for. Turkey just took a shot at getting back at the Russians for what they are doing in Syria. Nothing of importance will come out of this. Russia helped down a commercial jet last year and what happened then? Noting.
- eveningcoffee 11y ago
  One difference is that it was clearly distinguishable military action. The second difference is that the pilots were killed by ground forces on Syrian territory - this is equal to the killing of POWs. The rescue copter was also shot at.

Luc 11y ago

> Lets be correct. It was shot down over Turkey territory. How could you possible know enough to admonish people over this? We barely know the facts. Perhaps the plane never entered Turkish territory. Perhaps only for a few seconds. Maybe it was fired upon when it was already over Syria. Or maybe the rocket hit over Syria.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
eveningcoffee 11y ago
I agree with you and I changed my comment to address these concerns.
- Luc 11y ago
  Thanks, I appreciate it. It's amazing how much and how quickly we're getting information about this. I look forward to the Russian proof now, I wonder how it will compare. The Americans no doubt also had something watching the battlefield...

codingbeer 11y ago

According to the radar image released by Turkey, the aircraft passed over a strip of Turkey airspace around 2km wide. Apparently they gave the russian 10 warnings. That doesn't add up.

Luc 11y ago
> the aircraft passed over a strip of Turkey airspace around 2km wide. As in, it flew over 2km of Turkish airspace? At 2000 km/h ground speed, that would take 3.6 seconds. Perhaps 5 times as much if it was going as slow as possible.
noselasd 11y ago
How so - if the radar image is correct, the plane flew over the strip in Turkey twice, giving them quite a bit of time before and after the first pass to give warnings ?
pimlottc 11y ago
Turkey started warning the Russian plane before it had crossed the border: "In line with the military rules of engagement, the Turkish authorities repeatedly warned an unidentified aircraft that they were 15 kilometers or less away from the border"
- tobiasu 11y ago
  Which is absurd, Turkey have zero rights to declare a no fly zone and shoot down planes in Syria. This isn't the first time either, they shot down plenty SyAF fighters and helicopters over Syria, it's just that nobody in the West cares.
  - Bud 11y ago
    Actually, Turkey has every right to defend its airspace, under international law.
    - saiya-jin 11y ago

jacquesm 11y ago

> It was shot down over Turkey territory. I can find absolutely no evidence for that at this time. It is possible this is correct but the plane definitely came down inside Syria. A lot will ride on where it was shot down so best not to make any claims that strong without equally strong evidence.

ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
Considering how narrow the Turkish strip of land is, I don't think where the pilot (and wreckage?) ended up means that's where the F-16s actually fired their missile.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Precisely.
- gort 11y ago
  Also, these planes travel fast enough that it could be fired upon while in Turkish airspace, but hit while in Syrian airspace. Or it could be hit while in Turkish airspace, but crash in Syrian territory. It supposedly came down 4 km inside Syrian territory, which is a tiny distance for a supersonic plane, which the Su-24 is.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > It supposedly came down 4 km inside Syrian territory, which is a tiny distance for a supersonic plane, which the Su-24 is. There is quite a bit of conflicting information about this, some sources say 4, others say 40, some use miles, some kilometers.

Mikeb85 11y ago

No, Turkey's own radar readings that it showed to the press (that is being paraded around Twitter right now) shows it was shot in Syrian territory. It flew over a piece of Turkish territory a few km wide, and was well within Syrian airspace when the missile hit.

Bud 11y ago
The fact that it was back in Syrian airspace (if this is true) when the missile hit is, of course, immaterial. If the plane was over Turkish airspace when the missile was fired, Turkey was justified in protecting its airspace.
- onnoonno 11y ago
  Is it? Do you have a reference to relevant international laws?
eveningcoffee 11y ago
I think that what matters first is when the missile was released and second that it was a recurring entry into Turkey airspace. I think that both sides acted in a very unwise manner. Edit: IANAL in international law of such concerns.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  Yes, of course. But based on the maps Turkey is showing as 'proof', their case is pretty thin. The Russian plane flew over a strip of land that is barely even visible on a map of Turkey, never mind when flying at 6000m (the reported height) at high speed. The incursion likely lasted a dozen seconds or less. Turkey was obviously looking for the engagement. This just reinforces what everyone already thinks, that Turkey is helping ISIS.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > This just reinforces what everyone already thinks, that Turkey is helping ISIS. Turkey is helping some of the people Russia is fighting, but the people Russia is fighting aren't just Daesh, but every entity operating in Syria that isn't Assad's regime.

tdkl 11y ago

> In principle the Russians have become very cocky near all NATO borders You mean cocky while West placing all those military bases near Russian borders ?

eveningcoffee 11y ago
West placing all those military bases near Russian borders ? You mean Russian neighbours trying their best to prepare against growing Russian threat (by what I mean direct official threats, massive military training operations near borders, increased forces near borders)? The West, when we talk about Western Europe, has constantly reduced their military by dismantling their tank armies, reducing their air force and not keeping their navy up to date with the mantra that Russia is not the enemy any more while Russia has done the opposite. I think you are just not being honest here. Edit: I do not claim that Russians are the only ones who have become too cocky, but definitely not Russian neighbours. PS. I wish that there is no need in the world to discuss these matters here or anywhere else.
- tdkl 11y ago
  > growing Russian threat I see the western propaganda is still hard at work here. This allegedly growing threat just keeps growing every year and escalated to what ? While the wars mentioned in the article of this post was made by the west. The Western EU armies have been reduced only by turning them into a joke - they're active nowadays as NATO forces for abowe mentioned oil wars, while outer EU states can't keep the EU border intact and are flooded by people of unknown origin - until they arrive at their destination.
  - eveningcoffee 11y ago
    This allegedly growing threat just keeps growing every year and escalated to what I personally would hope that it would not escalate to anything but I think that your trying to ridicule it without any base. When there is growing threat from one side, then the opposing side (in the reasonable world) would try to counter the threat. In such way this game can continue indefinitely. I see the western propaganda is still hard at work here. I would like to hear your list of media sources (local and not local) that you consider to be non biased and in attempt to be honest. I am not sarcastic with this i.e. it is an actual request.

noselasd 11y ago

Hopefully the pilot made it though as a parachute was observed - http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/151124102631-russia-jet-syria-crash-6-super-169.jpg http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/151124102631-rus... (from this article: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/24/world/gallery/turkey-syria-russia-jet-crash/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/24/world/gallery/turkey-syria...)

WalterSear 11y ago
He was shot dead in his parachute and the rescue team was fired on.

mattlutze 11y ago

Sovereign territorial borders are no joke, there's no "we're just cutting a corner" when it comes to that line on the map. Particularly with the most recent Turkish national election turning out the way it did [1][0], a more conservative and nationally focused Turkish government would seem more likely to choose to enforce those borders if it thought they were violated. Much more troubling if it was, indeed, shot down outside of Turkey by mistake. And in any case, BBC is reporting that "a Turkmen brigade in Syria says [...] shot dead two pilots of the downed Russian jet as they descended with parachutes."[2] It's concerning that both sides have taken their respective actions. It's only going to exacerbate tenuous relationships with partner nation-states around the Syrian conflict. If Russia reacts aggressively, NATO-ally countries are treaty-bound to respond in support and defense of Turkey. I really hope both nations see how that increased stress is to no one's benefit and that Russia takes the mature and humble road of deescalation... 0: http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21677461-president-erdogan-back-drivers-seat-huge-win-turkeyu2019s-ruling-ak-party http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21677461-president-erdo... 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_November_2015#Overall_results https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_Nove... 2: http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-34908469 http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-34908469

eveningcoffee 11y ago
To further develop this with respect to my initial comment, there is nothing unusual in Russian pilots behavior (i.e. in connecting corners). They have done it constantly near their direct neighbours and also in Syria. I do not know why they are doing this i.e. do they do this from ignorance or does it come from their display of disrespect and superiority but I have seen many people to forecast that when they continue to do this with Turkey, it will end up with a shotdown. It does not follow that I agree with Turkeys actions. I think that it was very irresponsible, but I am not overly surprised either. I just wish that it had not happened.

polack 11y ago

The Russians did it only to provoke and to test the response times of the Turks, just like NATO does every day to other countries. This is not something you shoot down a jet for. Turkey just took a shot at getting back at the Russians for what they are doing in Syria. Nothing of importance will come out of this. Russia helped down a commercial jet last year and what happened then? Noting.

eveningcoffee 11y ago
One difference is that it was clearly distinguishable military action. The second difference is that the pilots were killed by ground forces on Syrian territory - this is equal to the killing of POWs. The rescue copter was also shot at.