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Sass is definitely not targeted at programmers, and it certainly doesn't just solve "a programmer's problem". As one of the users (a designer, incidentally) put

by nex3 17y ago

Sass is definitely not targeted at programmers, and it certainly doesn't just solve "a programmer's problem". As one of the users (a designer, incidentally) put it recently on the mailing list: Sass is for people who write CSS. This includes designers, programmers, and anyone in between. It has users from everywhere on this continuum who love it.

tjogin 17y ago
Doesn't matter who it's "targeted" for or what the intentions were — the fact of the matter is that Sass (and basically any other programming language designed to make html/css "better") is not popular in the design community. You can argue with this as much as you like, but when you are done, the cold harsh reality will still be that designers in general don't like programming. This should not puzzle you, nor the people behind Sass. If designers liked programming they would be programmers.
- jlong 17y ago
 Designers don't like programming? Most web designers I know want to know more about programming and jump at the opportunity to learn. Can you provide references or articles to back up your assertion?
 - tjogin 17y ago
 Most designers aren't programmers — they're designers.
 - jlong 17y ago
 Web designers? Again, to be good at web design you have to develop many of the same skills as programmers. Debugging CSS/HTML is about the same as debugging code.
 - tjogin 17y ago
 Debugging a turing-complete full-fledged programming language is the same as debugging markup? Interesting. I thought the whole point of Sass, the topic of this discussion, was to introduce more powerful programming concepts to CSS? So which is it, is CSS already as powerful a tool as a programming language thus making Sass completely useless, or does it lack the capabilities of a real programming language, thus making it much easier for designers to use with proficiency?
 jlong 17y ago
 Um, you are missing my point completely. CSS is not a programming language. However, when you are dealing with CSS related bugs in browsers a high level of determination and problem solving ability is required to get to the bottom of each bug. The same kind of determination is required to debug Ruby or Java or any other programming language. So the jump from competent web designer to programmer is not as far as you might think. They actually require a similar skillset.
 tjogin 17y ago
 Programming is a left-brain endeavor, designing utilizes the right side of the brain. Enjoying one of these tasks does not mean you enjoy the other, and certainly not that you're any good at it. The reality is that most designers aren't also proficient programmers. And most programmers aren't also proficient designers. This is the cold hard truth that your Sass-pushing zealotry cannot overcome. Most designers simply aren't keen to learn to program, because the two things are drastically different things.
 jlong 17y ago
 I don't seem to be making any headway with you on this, so this will probably be my last reply on this thread. But I'm speaking as a professional web designer that has a programming background. I see a lot of correlation between the two. If we were talking strictly design (as in art) your point would hold a little more weight with me, but we are talking about web design. The skills that are required here are not that different from the skills that are required by a programmer. One is very visual it is true, but both require strong troubleshooting skills. I'm not sure about the whole left/right brain thing. I'm speaking from my experience of what it takes to be a good web designer. Is programming strictly a right brain activity? I hear a lot of talk about beauty and design in programming circles today. Clearly it is not all cold crisp logic. You aspire towards beauty and function just as much as designers do.
 - billybob 17y ago
 "Most web designers I know want to know more about programming and jump at the opportunity to learn." Because they enjoy it, or because they want to advance in their career?
 - jlong 17y ago
 I'm not sure what enjoyment has to do with it. In my opinion Web design requires a very similar skill set. Debugging CSS/HTML takes a programmer's mindset. It is not that difficult for most designers to make that jump. Many of them have picked up Javascript just fine.
- billybob 17y ago
 "If designers liked programming they would be programmers." Amen. Having to express a visual idea in code is about as fun as it would be to have to draw your program and have a compiler turn it into code. If web designers could just draw their beautiful designs and have that magically turn into code, they'd love it. Search the web for services that claim to do just that, and you'll see there's plenty of demand. (I have no idea if those services work.)
- nex3 17y ago
 It's also a matter of empirical fact that the people who use Sass now are a mix of designers and developers. No, Sass isn't used by most designers. Nor is it used by most programmers. But of the people who use Sass, many of them are designers, and that proportion is growing. Writing Sass is not programming. Most of the time it doesn't feel like programming, and the future goals for it intend to make it feel even less like programming. I agree completely that if designers liked programming, they would be programmers. I made the same argument myself on the Compass mailing list the other day, defending a design decision made to make the language easier for designers.

by nex3 17y ago

tjogin 17y ago

Doesn't matter who it's "targeted" for or what the intentions were — the fact of the matter is that Sass (and basically any other programming language designed to make html/css "better") is not popular in the design community. You can argue with this as much as you like, but when you are done, the cold harsh reality will still be that designers in general don't like programming. This should not puzzle you, nor the people behind Sass. If designers liked programming they would be programmers.

jlong 17y ago
Designers don't like programming? Most web designers I know want to know more about programming and jump at the opportunity to learn. Can you provide references or articles to back up your assertion?
- tjogin 17y ago
  Most designers aren't programmers — they're designers.
  - jlong 17y ago
    Web designers? Again, to be good at web design you have to develop many of the same skills as programmers. Debugging CSS/HTML is about the same as debugging code.
    - tjogin 17y ago
      Debugging a turing-complete full-fledged programming language is the same as debugging markup? Interesting. I thought the whole point of Sass, the topic of this discussion, was to introduce more powerful programming concepts to CSS? So which is it, is CSS already as powerful a tool as a programming language thus making Sass completely useless, or does it lack the capabilities of a real programming language, thus making it much easier for designers to use with proficiency?
      - jlong 17y ago
        Um, you are missing my point completely. CSS is not a programming language. However, when you are dealing with CSS related bugs in browsers a high level of determination and problem solving ability is required to get to the bottom of each bug. The same kind of determination is required to debug Ruby or Java or any other programming language. So the jump from competent web designer to programmer is not as far as you might think. They actually require a similar skillset.
        tjogin 17y ago
        Programming is a left-brain endeavor, designing utilizes the right side of the brain. Enjoying one of these tasks does not mean you enjoy the other, and certainly not that you're any good at it. The reality is that most designers aren't also proficient programmers. And most programmers aren't also proficient designers. This is the cold hard truth that your Sass-pushing zealotry cannot overcome. Most designers simply aren't keen to learn to program, because the two things are drastically different things.
        jlong 17y ago
        I don't seem to be making any headway with you on this, so this will probably be my last reply on this thread. But I'm speaking as a professional web designer that has a programming background. I see a lot of correlation between the two. If we were talking strictly design (as in art) your point would hold a little more weight with me, but we are talking about web design. The skills that are required here are not that different from the skills that are required by a programmer. One is very visual it is true, but both require strong troubleshooting skills. I'm not sure about the whole left/right brain thing. I'm speaking from my experience of what it takes to be a good web designer. Is programming strictly a right brain activity? I hear a lot of talk about beauty and design in programming circles today. Clearly it is not all cold crisp logic. You aspire towards beauty and function just as much as designers do.
- billybob 17y ago
  "Most web designers I know want to know more about programming and jump at the opportunity to learn." Because they enjoy it, or because they want to advance in their career?
  - jlong 17y ago
    I'm not sure what enjoyment has to do with it. In my opinion Web design requires a very similar skill set. Debugging CSS/HTML takes a programmer's mindset. It is not that difficult for most designers to make that jump. Many of them have picked up Javascript just fine.
billybob 17y ago
"If designers liked programming they would be programmers." Amen. Having to express a visual idea in code is about as fun as it would be to have to draw your program and have a compiler turn it into code. If web designers could just draw their beautiful designs and have that magically turn into code, they'd love it. Search the web for services that claim to do just that, and you'll see there's plenty of demand. (I have no idea if those services work.)
nex3 17y ago
It's also a matter of empirical fact that the people who use Sass now are a mix of designers and developers. No, Sass isn't used by most designers. Nor is it used by most programmers. But of the people who use Sass, many of them are designers, and that proportion is growing. Writing Sass is not programming. Most of the time it doesn't feel like programming, and the future goals for it intend to make it feel even less like programming. I agree completely that if designers liked programming, they would be programmers. I made the same argument myself on the Compass mailing list the other day, defending a design decision made to make the language easier for designers.