4 ms·

First off, "most people" won't be using Sass instead of writing CSS directly, any time soon. Sass hasn't really been picked up at all in the design community (

by tjogin 17y ago

First off, "most people" won't be using Sass instead of writing CSS directly, any time soon. Sass hasn't really been picked up at all in the design community (who are the primary users of CSS), it's a programmer's solution to a programmer's problem — the designers' point of view seems to be that Sass doesn't solve any of their problems, it only adds complexity. Now, I like Sass just fine, but this isn't about me, this is about the retarded "idea" that Sass would somehow spell CSS's "demise" (and that's assuming we completely ignore that Sass produces CSS — the very thing which demise it is supposed to cause).

nex3 17y ago
Sass is definitely not targeted at programmers, and it certainly doesn't just solve "a programmer's problem". As one of the users (a designer, incidentally) put it recently on the mailing list: Sass is for people who write CSS. This includes designers, programmers, and anyone in between. It has users from everywhere on this continuum who love it.
- tjogin 17y ago
 Doesn't matter who it's "targeted" for or what the intentions were — the fact of the matter is that Sass (and basically any other programming language designed to make html/css "better") is not popular in the design community. You can argue with this as much as you like, but when you are done, the cold harsh reality will still be that designers in general don't like programming. This should not puzzle you, nor the people behind Sass. If designers liked programming they would be programmers.
 - jlong 17y ago
 Designers don't like programming? Most web designers I know want to know more about programming and jump at the opportunity to learn. Can you provide references or articles to back up your assertion?
 - tjogin 17y ago
 Most designers aren't programmers — they're designers.
 - jlong 17y ago
 Web designers? Again, to be good at web design you have to develop many of the same skills as programmers. Debugging CSS/HTML is about the same as debugging code.
 tjogin 17y ago
 Debugging a turing-complete full-fledged programming language is the same as debugging markup? Interesting. I thought the whole point of Sass, the topic of this discussion, was to introduce more powerful programming concepts to CSS? So which is it, is CSS already as powerful a tool as a programming language thus making Sass completely useless, or does it lack the capabilities of a real programming language, thus making it much easier for designers to use with proficiency?
 jlong 17y ago
 Um, you are missing my point completely. CSS is not a programming language. However, when you are dealing with CSS related bugs in browsers a high level of determination and problem solving ability is required to get to the bottom of each bug. The same kind of determination is required to debug Ruby or Java or any other programming language. So the jump from competent web designer to programmer is not as far as you might think. They actually require a similar skillset.
 tjogin 17y ago
 Programming is a left-brain endeavor, designing utilizes the right side of the brain. Enjoying one of these tasks does not mean you enjoy the other, and certainly not that you're any good at it. The reality is that most designers aren't also proficient programmers. And most programmers aren't also proficient designers. This is the cold hard truth that your Sass-pushing zealotry cannot overcome. Most designers simply aren't keen to learn to program, because the two things are drastically different things.
 - billybob 17y ago
 "If designers liked programming they would be programmers." Amen. Having to express a visual idea in code is about as fun as it would be to have to draw your program and have a compiler turn it into code. If web designers could just draw their beautiful designs and have that magically turn into code, they'd love it. Search the web for services that claim to do just that, and you'll see there's plenty of demand. (I have no idea if those services work.)
 - nex3 17y ago
 It's also a matter of empirical fact that the people who use Sass now are a mix of designers and developers. No, Sass isn't used by most designers. Nor is it used by most programmers. But of the people who use Sass, many of them are designers, and that proportion is growing. Writing Sass is not programming. Most of the time it doesn't feel like programming, and the future goals for it intend to make it feel even less like programming. I agree completely that if designers liked programming, they would be programmers. I made the same argument myself on the Compass mailing list the other day, defending a design decision made to make the language easier for designers.
cobralibre 17y ago
If some putatively "creative" person has taken the effort to learn HTML and CSS, then they're already working in an area which to them may as well be programming -- odd as that may sound to an actual programmer. (And besides, isn't a significant portion of jQuery's audience comprised of web designers? What does that tell you?) I find it hard to believe that anyone who has worked with CSS on a regular basis would be intimidated by Sass. As the article makes quite clear, it's conceptually simple and provides obvious maintainability advantages. If anything, it subtracts rather than adds complexity.
- tjogin 17y ago
  > I find it hard to believe that anyone who has worked with CSS on a regular basis would be intimidated by Sass. Would it be hard to believe still if person after person told you so flat out? Because this is the primary reason people say "no thanks" to Sass (and all other html/css empowering macro languages, etc). Well, except they don't use the word "intimidated", they say that they don't need html/css to get any more complicated, it's fine as it is.
  - charlesr 17y ago
    "except they don't use the word "intimidated", they say that they don't need html/css to get any more complicated, it's fine as it is." I don't know who you've been observing, but in my experience as a web designer, with a bit over 15 years in the industry, is that web designers are constantly moaning about the limitations of HTML and CSS and hate the slow pace of change (or, to be more accurate, the slow pace of the demise of the IE browsers). They're also hungry to learn more and push the boundaries of current knowledge and practise. You only have to look at the coding section of Smashing Magazine, the most popular web design site online, to see that web designers are in no way the sort who are going to be intimidated or uninterested in Sass. http://www.smashingmagazine.com/category/coding/ http://www.smashingmagazine.com/category/coding/ In fact, the debate regarding the evolution of CSS on, and my impression is that there is serious pressure on CSS to change and evolve, judging by the comments here: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/09/10/css-wishlist-new-ideas-debates-and-solutions/ http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/09/10/css-wishlist-new-...

by tjogin 17y ago

nex3 17y ago

Sass is definitely not targeted at programmers, and it certainly doesn't just solve "a programmer's problem". As one of the users (a designer, incidentally) put it recently on the mailing list: Sass is for people who write CSS. This includes designers, programmers, and anyone in between. It has users from everywhere on this continuum who love it.

tjogin 17y ago
Doesn't matter who it's "targeted" for or what the intentions were — the fact of the matter is that Sass (and basically any other programming language designed to make html/css "better") is not popular in the design community. You can argue with this as much as you like, but when you are done, the cold harsh reality will still be that designers in general don't like programming. This should not puzzle you, nor the people behind Sass. If designers liked programming they would be programmers.
- jlong 17y ago
 Designers don't like programming? Most web designers I know want to know more about programming and jump at the opportunity to learn. Can you provide references or articles to back up your assertion?
 - tjogin 17y ago
 Most designers aren't programmers — they're designers.
 - jlong 17y ago
 Web designers? Again, to be good at web design you have to develop many of the same skills as programmers. Debugging CSS/HTML is about the same as debugging code.
 - tjogin 17y ago
 Debugging a turing-complete full-fledged programming language is the same as debugging markup? Interesting. I thought the whole point of Sass, the topic of this discussion, was to introduce more powerful programming concepts to CSS? So which is it, is CSS already as powerful a tool as a programming language thus making Sass completely useless, or does it lack the capabilities of a real programming language, thus making it much easier for designers to use with proficiency?
 jlong 17y ago
 Um, you are missing my point completely. CSS is not a programming language. However, when you are dealing with CSS related bugs in browsers a high level of determination and problem solving ability is required to get to the bottom of each bug. The same kind of determination is required to debug Ruby or Java or any other programming language. So the jump from competent web designer to programmer is not as far as you might think. They actually require a similar skillset.
 tjogin 17y ago
 Programming is a left-brain endeavor, designing utilizes the right side of the brain. Enjoying one of these tasks does not mean you enjoy the other, and certainly not that you're any good at it. The reality is that most designers aren't also proficient programmers. And most programmers aren't also proficient designers. This is the cold hard truth that your Sass-pushing zealotry cannot overcome. Most designers simply aren't keen to learn to program, because the two things are drastically different things.
- billybob 17y ago
 "If designers liked programming they would be programmers." Amen. Having to express a visual idea in code is about as fun as it would be to have to draw your program and have a compiler turn it into code. If web designers could just draw their beautiful designs and have that magically turn into code, they'd love it. Search the web for services that claim to do just that, and you'll see there's plenty of demand. (I have no idea if those services work.)
- nex3 17y ago
 It's also a matter of empirical fact that the people who use Sass now are a mix of designers and developers. No, Sass isn't used by most designers. Nor is it used by most programmers. But of the people who use Sass, many of them are designers, and that proportion is growing. Writing Sass is not programming. Most of the time it doesn't feel like programming, and the future goals for it intend to make it feel even less like programming. I agree completely that if designers liked programming, they would be programmers. I made the same argument myself on the Compass mailing list the other day, defending a design decision made to make the language easier for designers.

cobralibre 17y ago

If some putatively "creative" person has taken the effort to learn HTML and CSS, then they're already working in an area which to them may as well be programming -- odd as that may sound to an actual programmer. (And besides, isn't a significant portion of jQuery's audience comprised of web designers? What does that tell you?) I find it hard to believe that anyone who has worked with CSS on a regular basis would be intimidated by Sass. As the article makes quite clear, it's conceptually simple and provides obvious maintainability advantages. If anything, it subtracts rather than adds complexity.

tjogin 17y ago
> I find it hard to believe that anyone who has worked with CSS on a regular basis would be intimidated by Sass. Would it be hard to believe still if person after person told you so flat out? Because this is the primary reason people say "no thanks" to Sass (and all other html/css empowering macro languages, etc). Well, except they don't use the word "intimidated", they say that they don't need html/css to get any more complicated, it's fine as it is.
- charlesr 17y ago
  "except they don't use the word "intimidated", they say that they don't need html/css to get any more complicated, it's fine as it is." I don't know who you've been observing, but in my experience as a web designer, with a bit over 15 years in the industry, is that web designers are constantly moaning about the limitations of HTML and CSS and hate the slow pace of change (or, to be more accurate, the slow pace of the demise of the IE browsers). They're also hungry to learn more and push the boundaries of current knowledge and practise. You only have to look at the coding section of Smashing Magazine, the most popular web design site online, to see that web designers are in no way the sort who are going to be intimidated or uninterested in Sass. http://www.smashingmagazine.com/category/coding/ http://www.smashingmagazine.com/category/coding/ In fact, the debate regarding the evolution of CSS on, and my impression is that there is serious pressure on CSS to change and evolve, judging by the comments here: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/09/10/css-wishlist-new-ideas-debates-and-solutions/ http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/09/10/css-wishlist-new-...