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I can't say that parenthood has more "freedom" since I am not a parent, but I do agree with your assertion that the vocally childfree types tend to be the type

I can't say that parenthood has more "freedom" since I am not a parent, but I do agree with your assertion that the vocally childfree types tend to be the type who favor the maximization of various treadmills. You can tell by the reasons they give: want more time for job, want more money for travel, want more X for Y, and a kid would subtract a ton from X and therefore ruin the desired end, Y. I'm sure they're right by their standards of the moment in most of these equations, but given the pedestrian X's and Y's which they usually mention, I assume that they do not take "meaningfulness" or "fulfillment" into their calculus. It's shortsighted, but I can't blame them too much, since it's easy to forget to be human. I also assume they don't understand the re-prioritization that occurs when people have children. I don't know first hand, but I've heard enough people squawk about parenthood to know that it reorganized their existence drastically. It seems like parenthood is a fundamental human experience. I suppose that people can reject it, but I'm not convinced it's much different than people who reject romantic interaction and choose celibacy for essentially the same stated reasons. A valid life choice that we should accept fully, to be sure-- but a product of our fiercely competitive time rather than Platonically apriori, I think.

coldtea 11y ago
>but given the pedestrian X's and Y's which they usually mention, I assume that they do not take "meaningfulness" or "fulfillment" into their calculus. OTOH, why "meaningfulness" and "fulfillment" are related to parenthood? The latter is probably quite the opposite, the all too natural reproduction step that any animal can do. Wasn't Mozart's, Newton's, Turing's, etc life "meaningful" because? (Or Jesus', if one's included to that kind of thing). >I also assume they don't understand the re-prioritization that occurs when people have children. I don't know first hand, but I've heard enough people squawk about parenthood to know that it reorganized their existence drastically. It's also that later "remorse" about parenthood makes you considered a monster -- so most people would spin the experience as something amazing for that reason too. But in practice if one counts how many sad family stories with bad parenting this "new priorities" thing is not always true.
- rayiner 11y ago
  > It's also that later "remorse" about parenthood makes you considered a monster -- so most people would spin the experience as something amazing for that reason too. "Remorse" about parenthood is more like "remorse" about having bought a Ferrari. People might curse the maintenance and expense, but push come to shove, few would actually give it back.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Sure, it's a living thing that you made, and it's cute and everything. With "remorse" I wasn't going for the "I want to give it back" scenario, but the "Hmm, this is great, but it isn't the all roses profound experience people tout it to be. Heck it isn't even the best thing to have ever happened to me, actually I liked life with my wife before more.".
- tptacek 11y ago
  If you are Mozart, Newton, Turing, or Jesus, you have a deck of "get out of parenthood debates on message boards free" cards, and as your attorney in this matter, I advise you to start using them.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    My point wasn't that you have to "succeed" on the Mozart/Newton scale to be meaningful, but that being a parent is not a prerequisite for having a meaningful life. I just used the examples that would make it easier for all to agree -- from them, it's all about what one considers a meaningful achievements. Some people could not care less for either Jesus or Mozart, but could see that e.g. building a business or being a scientist or whatever can be meaningful too.

coldtea 11y ago

>but given the pedestrian X's and Y's which they usually mention, I assume that they do not take "meaningfulness" or "fulfillment" into their calculus. OTOH, why "meaningfulness" and "fulfillment" are related to parenthood? The latter is probably quite the opposite, the all too natural reproduction step that any animal can do. Wasn't Mozart's, Newton's, Turing's, etc life "meaningful" because? (Or Jesus', if one's included to that kind of thing). >I also assume they don't understand the re-prioritization that occurs when people have children. I don't know first hand, but I've heard enough people squawk about parenthood to know that it reorganized their existence drastically. It's also that later "remorse" about parenthood makes you considered a monster -- so most people would spin the experience as something amazing for that reason too. But in practice if one counts how many sad family stories with bad parenting this "new priorities" thing is not always true.

rayiner 11y ago
> It's also that later "remorse" about parenthood makes you considered a monster -- so most people would spin the experience as something amazing for that reason too. "Remorse" about parenthood is more like "remorse" about having bought a Ferrari. People might curse the maintenance and expense, but push come to shove, few would actually give it back.
- coldtea 11y ago
  Sure, it's a living thing that you made, and it's cute and everything. With "remorse" I wasn't going for the "I want to give it back" scenario, but the "Hmm, this is great, but it isn't the all roses profound experience people tout it to be. Heck it isn't even the best thing to have ever happened to me, actually I liked life with my wife before more.".
tptacek 11y ago
If you are Mozart, Newton, Turing, or Jesus, you have a deck of "get out of parenthood debates on message boards free" cards, and as your attorney in this matter, I advise you to start using them.
- coldtea 11y ago
  My point wasn't that you have to "succeed" on the Mozart/Newton scale to be meaningful, but that being a parent is not a prerequisite for having a meaningful life. I just used the examples that would make it easier for all to agree -- from them, it's all about what one considers a meaningful achievements. Some people could not care less for either Jesus or Mozart, but could see that e.g. building a business or being a scientist or whatever can be meaningful too.