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I used to be avowed "childfree" from age 19 through 30, irrationally fearful of losing my time and my "freedom" to parenthood. In hindsight, I was an insuffera

I used to be avowed "childfree" from age 19 through 30, irrationally fearful of losing my time and my "freedom" to parenthood. In hindsight, I was an insufferable fool. What people like the former me fail to realize is that burning your health and your years on the hedonic treadmill is its own kind of prison, and arguably far less "free" than choosing parenthood.

balfirevic 11y ago
I know that's not exactly what you wrote, but if you don't mind clarifying... Do you think these women are also being irrational and possibly insufferable fools?
- vox_mollis 11y ago
  I don't know them, I can only speak for me. But I do consider my former self a pretty typical member of the "childfree" community. So I don't consider it too far a stretch to label the typical person with the associated mindset in terms that I see myself. To RIMR's point above, I'm sure there are plenty who disavow children for reasons other than going racing on the hedonic treadmill.
- LanceH 11y ago
  We only really know the answer to that after the fact. Even then, we only really know they aren't if they accidentally conceive and still regret it. It's not uncommon to know someone who was childfree for years and years, only do a complete reversal when they have children late in life. That said, it's one of those topics of conversation where I might just say (to myself), "I hope you're right." To them I'd say, "oh, cool" and drop it. It's really nobody else's business.
- shkkmo 11y ago
  Even if there are people making an irrational and foolish choice to remain childless (and I'm sure there are), there are certainly more people making an irrational and foolish choice to have a child. People just don't seem as comfortable calling out the later.
  - Vraxx 11y ago
    Or sometimes it wasn't a choice at all (/s), or rather the choice was disguised as the choice of whether or not to have safe sex when they weren't thinking of having children.
RIMR 11y ago
>burning your health and your years on the hedonic treadmill Being childfree doesn't mean you have to be self-destructive. Maybe you were self-destructive, and maybe you wouldn't have been if you had kids, but that's you. It doesn't mean that it isn't possible to have a healthy, productive, child-free life; it only means that it didn't work for you.
- mmmBacon 11y ago
  I think vox_mollis meant burning the healthiest years of life; this doesn't necessarily mean being self-destructive.
cryoshon 11y ago
I can't say that parenthood has more "freedom" since I am not a parent, but I do agree with your assertion that the vocally childfree types tend to be the type who favor the maximization of various treadmills. You can tell by the reasons they give: want more time for job, want more money for travel, want more X for Y, and a kid would subtract a ton from X and therefore ruin the desired end, Y. I'm sure they're right by their standards of the moment in most of these equations, but given the pedestrian X's and Y's which they usually mention, I assume that they do not take "meaningfulness" or "fulfillment" into their calculus. It's shortsighted, but I can't blame them too much, since it's easy to forget to be human. I also assume they don't understand the re-prioritization that occurs when people have children. I don't know first hand, but I've heard enough people squawk about parenthood to know that it reorganized their existence drastically. It seems like parenthood is a fundamental human experience. I suppose that people can reject it, but I'm not convinced it's much different than people who reject romantic interaction and choose celibacy for essentially the same stated reasons. A valid life choice that we should accept fully, to be sure-- but a product of our fiercely competitive time rather than Platonically apriori, I think.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >but given the pedestrian X's and Y's which they usually mention, I assume that they do not take "meaningfulness" or "fulfillment" into their calculus. OTOH, why "meaningfulness" and "fulfillment" are related to parenthood? The latter is probably quite the opposite, the all too natural reproduction step that any animal can do. Wasn't Mozart's, Newton's, Turing's, etc life "meaningful" because? (Or Jesus', if one's included to that kind of thing). >I also assume they don't understand the re-prioritization that occurs when people have children. I don't know first hand, but I've heard enough people squawk about parenthood to know that it reorganized their existence drastically. It's also that later "remorse" about parenthood makes you considered a monster -- so most people would spin the experience as something amazing for that reason too. But in practice if one counts how many sad family stories with bad parenting this "new priorities" thing is not always true.
  - rayiner 11y ago
SCdF 11y ago
Can you go into more detail, what do you mean hedonic treadmill? I'm 30 and I've never felt like having kids. I just, idk, I just don't look at kids and go "yeah that seems like a fantastic idea".
- cryoshon 11y ago
  I'm not sure you're the "childfree" demographic, actually-- they tend to mention it to everyone they encounter surreptitiously, as though they are anti-reproduction rather than reproduction-apathetic. That's just my experience with them, though.
  - SCdF 11y ago
    Jeez, I've found the key is to make sure if a conversation steers toward it steer away, because when people have found out they find every excuse to show me pictures of how cute their kids are etc so they can say "see, now don't you want kids?". Makes me feel like a vegetarian at a bbq
- jbob2000 11y ago
  I think his point was, that you can only go so far pleasing yourself. Eventually you want others to experience life's pleasures, having fulfilled yourself.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - tptacek 11y ago
    To be clear, there are other ways to solve that problem than raising children. Raising children just happens to be one of the more straightforward ways off the treadmill. And, equally obviously, I hope, it's pretty easy to stay on the treadmill even after you have kids, which is a trap worth knowing about and avoiding. It took me a bunch of years to figure that out (we had our first when I was 22).
thex10 11y ago
So why do you feel differently now? I'm genuinely curious.
lordCarbonFiber 11y ago
In my, to be fair limited, experience I haven't seen any of what you've described. My peers and I aren't avoiding children because of some fear of investment, but rather a stark understanding of how non-trivial child rearing is. We've watched our, generally well educated and well meaning, parents do a number on us and don't feel confident bringing in spawn to inflict the same, or new, mistakes on. Watching how much better my parents', and others in their generation, lives have gotten now that the kids are out of the house, I can't really say envy or desire their experience over the past 25 years in the slightest.
- dogma1138 11y ago
  The problem with that if everyone will act this way, the world or at least the western world will die out within a couple of generation. Europe is already beyond the point of no-return excluding immigration. It's a bit of a shitty place we put ourselves in and I'm just as selfish as you to be fair. I come home from work why would the hell would i want to change diapers instead of going to the gym, playing some games, or doing any other activity. That said if i think about it I would've been much rather be 40 when the kids move out, then what now would be 50+, give it a couple of more years and it will be 60+. Our parents at least had for the most part the bright idea and had kids in their early 20's now they can have their fun and laugh at us when we'll be still changing diapers at the age they sent us off to college and went on their around the world trip.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    My kids are in high school, and my oldest is applying to college soon, and while I feel a lot of relief that I don't have any diaper changing in my immediate future (unlike a lot of my male friends around my age who do), the "getting my freedom back now that the kids are moving out" thing is bittersweet, and maybe even a little more bitter than sweet. I kind of wish I had, like, years 6-12 again; I'd trade another 6 years of not being able to go out absolutely any time I want to for that. I'd have to think about it but I might even trade a few years of that for a couple more teenage years. Maybe I'll feel differently once I "have my freedom back". :P Worth remembering: the diaper changing thing is over in the blink of an eye (it doesn't feel like that at the time, but you will look back and be amazed at how quickly it shot by), and by the time your kids are teenagers they're pretty low-maintenance --- at least in terms of being able to go out drinking when you want to.
mmmBacon 11y ago
I agree with you only in my case I was 35. Now, I'm in my early 40s with 3 kids, one as young as 2. I wish I had my kids when I was younger because who knows how many healthy years I'll have to spend with them. I think often how I'll be in my 70's when my 2 year old is 30.

balfirevic 11y ago

I know that's not exactly what you wrote, but if you don't mind clarifying... Do you think these women are also being irrational and possibly insufferable fools?

vox_mollis 11y ago
I don't know them, I can only speak for me. But I do consider my former self a pretty typical member of the "childfree" community. So I don't consider it too far a stretch to label the typical person with the associated mindset in terms that I see myself. To RIMR's point above, I'm sure there are plenty who disavow children for reasons other than going racing on the hedonic treadmill.
LanceH 11y ago
We only really know the answer to that after the fact. Even then, we only really know they aren't if they accidentally conceive and still regret it. It's not uncommon to know someone who was childfree for years and years, only do a complete reversal when they have children late in life. That said, it's one of those topics of conversation where I might just say (to myself), "I hope you're right." To them I'd say, "oh, cool" and drop it. It's really nobody else's business.
shkkmo 11y ago
Even if there are people making an irrational and foolish choice to remain childless (and I'm sure there are), there are certainly more people making an irrational and foolish choice to have a child. People just don't seem as comfortable calling out the later.
- Vraxx 11y ago
  Or sometimes it wasn't a choice at all (/s), or rather the choice was disguised as the choice of whether or not to have safe sex when they weren't thinking of having children.

RIMR 11y ago

>burning your health and your years on the hedonic treadmill Being childfree doesn't mean you have to be self-destructive. Maybe you were self-destructive, and maybe you wouldn't have been if you had kids, but that's you. It doesn't mean that it isn't possible to have a healthy, productive, child-free life; it only means that it didn't work for you.

mmmBacon 11y ago
I think vox_mollis meant burning the healthiest years of life; this doesn't necessarily mean being self-destructive.

cryoshon 11y ago

I can't say that parenthood has more "freedom" since I am not a parent, but I do agree with your assertion that the vocally childfree types tend to be the type who favor the maximization of various treadmills. You can tell by the reasons they give: want more time for job, want more money for travel, want more X for Y, and a kid would subtract a ton from X and therefore ruin the desired end, Y. I'm sure they're right by their standards of the moment in most of these equations, but given the pedestrian X's and Y's which they usually mention, I assume that they do not take "meaningfulness" or "fulfillment" into their calculus. It's shortsighted, but I can't blame them too much, since it's easy to forget to be human. I also assume they don't understand the re-prioritization that occurs when people have children. I don't know first hand, but I've heard enough people squawk about parenthood to know that it reorganized their existence drastically. It seems like parenthood is a fundamental human experience. I suppose that people can reject it, but I'm not convinced it's much different than people who reject romantic interaction and choose celibacy for essentially the same stated reasons. A valid life choice that we should accept fully, to be sure-- but a product of our fiercely competitive time rather than Platonically apriori, I think.

coldtea 11y ago
>but given the pedestrian X's and Y's which they usually mention, I assume that they do not take "meaningfulness" or "fulfillment" into their calculus. OTOH, why "meaningfulness" and "fulfillment" are related to parenthood? The latter is probably quite the opposite, the all too natural reproduction step that any animal can do. Wasn't Mozart's, Newton's, Turing's, etc life "meaningful" because? (Or Jesus', if one's included to that kind of thing). >I also assume they don't understand the re-prioritization that occurs when people have children. I don't know first hand, but I've heard enough people squawk about parenthood to know that it reorganized their existence drastically. It's also that later "remorse" about parenthood makes you considered a monster -- so most people would spin the experience as something amazing for that reason too. But in practice if one counts how many sad family stories with bad parenting this "new priorities" thing is not always true.
- rayiner 11y ago

SCdF 11y ago

Can you go into more detail, what do you mean hedonic treadmill? I'm 30 and I've never felt like having kids. I just, idk, I just don't look at kids and go "yeah that seems like a fantastic idea".

cryoshon 11y ago
I'm not sure you're the "childfree" demographic, actually-- they tend to mention it to everyone they encounter surreptitiously, as though they are anti-reproduction rather than reproduction-apathetic. That's just my experience with them, though.
- SCdF 11y ago
  Jeez, I've found the key is to make sure if a conversation steers toward it steer away, because when people have found out they find every excuse to show me pictures of how cute their kids are etc so they can say "see, now don't you want kids?". Makes me feel like a vegetarian at a bbq
jbob2000 11y ago
I think his point was, that you can only go so far pleasing yourself. Eventually you want others to experience life's pleasures, having fulfilled yourself.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- tptacek 11y ago
  To be clear, there are other ways to solve that problem than raising children. Raising children just happens to be one of the more straightforward ways off the treadmill. And, equally obviously, I hope, it's pretty easy to stay on the treadmill even after you have kids, which is a trap worth knowing about and avoiding. It took me a bunch of years to figure that out (we had our first when I was 22).

thex10 11y ago

So why do you feel differently now? I'm genuinely curious.

lordCarbonFiber 11y ago

In my, to be fair limited, experience I haven't seen any of what you've described. My peers and I aren't avoiding children because of some fear of investment, but rather a stark understanding of how non-trivial child rearing is. We've watched our, generally well educated and well meaning, parents do a number on us and don't feel confident bringing in spawn to inflict the same, or new, mistakes on. Watching how much better my parents', and others in their generation, lives have gotten now that the kids are out of the house, I can't really say envy or desire their experience over the past 25 years in the slightest.

dogma1138 11y ago
The problem with that if everyone will act this way, the world or at least the western world will die out within a couple of generation. Europe is already beyond the point of no-return excluding immigration. It's a bit of a shitty place we put ourselves in and I'm just as selfish as you to be fair. I come home from work why would the hell would i want to change diapers instead of going to the gym, playing some games, or doing any other activity. That said if i think about it I would've been much rather be 40 when the kids move out, then what now would be 50+, give it a couple of more years and it will be 60+. Our parents at least had for the most part the bright idea and had kids in their early 20's now they can have their fun and laugh at us when we'll be still changing diapers at the age they sent us off to college and went on their around the world trip.
- tptacek 11y ago
  My kids are in high school, and my oldest is applying to college soon, and while I feel a lot of relief that I don't have any diaper changing in my immediate future (unlike a lot of my male friends around my age who do), the "getting my freedom back now that the kids are moving out" thing is bittersweet, and maybe even a little more bitter than sweet. I kind of wish I had, like, years 6-12 again; I'd trade another 6 years of not being able to go out absolutely any time I want to for that. I'd have to think about it but I might even trade a few years of that for a couple more teenage years. Maybe I'll feel differently once I "have my freedom back". :P Worth remembering: the diaper changing thing is over in the blink of an eye (it doesn't feel like that at the time, but you will look back and be amazed at how quickly it shot by), and by the time your kids are teenagers they're pretty low-maintenance --- at least in terms of being able to go out drinking when you want to.

mmmBacon 11y ago

I agree with you only in my case I was 35. Now, I'm in my early 40s with 3 kids, one as young as 2. I wish I had my kids when I was younger because who knows how many healthy years I'll have to spend with them. I think often how I'll be in my 70's when my 2 year old is 30.