6 ms·

One should always do a clean install of Windows with a OEM disc when buy a new PC. You can avoid a lot of issues that way...

wlesieutre 11y ago
Or buy "Signature Edition" from Microsoft http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/Signature-Edition-Computers/categoryID.69916600 http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/Signatur...
- astrodust 11y ago
  So buy it twice to get a good copy? Microsoft really needs to reel in the bad behaviour on the part of the OEMs.
  - wlesieutre 11y ago
    No no, sorry. Signature edition is buying the computer itself, not rebuying the OS. They're computers from Dell/Toshiba/Acer/etc. sold directly by Microsoft without any garbageware. Saves you the hassle of having to do a clean install after you buy it.
    - astrodust 11y ago
      Do you have a link that explains what this is? The previous one dumped me on some random Microsoft Store page.
      - wlesieutre 11y ago
        Hm, link works for me. Maybe MS is doing a location based redirect or something? Try google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoftstore.com%2Fstore%2Fmsusa%2Fen_US%2Fcat%2FSignature-Edition-Computers%2FcategoryID.69916600&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%...
  - scholia 11y ago
    The US government launched a massive anti-trust case against Microsoft to enable OEMs to do whatever they wanted. It cost Microsoft many billions of dollars, almost had the company broken up, and put them under close Department of Justice supervision for a decade. I don't think Microsoft will risk anything like that again....
    - Tloewald 11y ago
      Microsoft didn't get sued for trying to make installing Windows easier. It got sued for making changes in Windows designed to damage competitors (specifically Netscape, Sun, Borland, and Apple) and publicly and repeatedly lying about it.
      - scholia 11y ago
        The heart of the case was whether OEMs could install Netscape and/or remove IE. One direct result was that Microsoft could not insist on its preferred installation of Windows. Microsoft was also prevented from charging the major OEMs different prices, which was its main way of rewarding OEMs for doing installations the way Microsoft wanted.
        Tloewald 11y ago
        This is true -- but again Microsoft got caught lying about how IE's functionality was "intrinsic" to Windows (which was why it prevented IE from being uninstalled). It was also forcing PC manufacturers to pay a royalty for every PC sold, whether or not it was bundled with DOS or Windows (which damaged rivals like Digital Research -- the company Microsoft essentially stole DOS from, but that's another story).
        scholia 11y ago
        > how IE's functionality was "intrinsic" to Windows Microsoft had been forced to sign a consent decree in 1995, which prevented it from tying new products to the OS but specifically allowed it to add new features to the OS. It therefore didn't have much choice about its arguments, though (like every other OS supplier) it obviously wanted to include a browser. Equally obviously, delivering a free browser as part of the OS was good for consumers, which is why Microsoft won the browser bundling case on appeal. Microsoft had also componentized the browser so that different functions could be used by other programs, which to some extent, did make it part of the OS. (Much of the anti-trust case argument on that topic was phenomenally stupid.) >It was also forcing PC manufacturers to pay a royalty for every PC sold, whether or not it was bundled with DOS or Windows Don't think so. That was a deal offered to some OEMs, but as far as I know, it was never forced on anybody. In any case, the US Justice Department banned the idea in 1994. I tend to think 21+ years is a bit of long time to hold a grudge about something that was killed before it took off. > Digital Research -- the company Microsoft essentially stole DOS from, but that's another story Well, DR screwed up massively by refusing to sign a deal with IBM, then by charging too much for DR DOS, and then Apple screwed it in a court case over the UI in DR GEM. Either way, DR was dead long before the Microsoft anti-trust suit.
- r00fus 11y ago
  At this point, the price "advantage" for Windows PCs vs. a Mac is tenuous at best... especially since a lot of folks buy on some "30% off this week" deal with Dell/Lenovo/etc.
gootdude 11y ago
Lenovo uses Microsoft Windows Platform Binary Table to install bloatware, which gets around any kind of clean install/reset. Clean install for Windows means nothing when you have shady vendors utilizing this mechanism.
- _lce0 11y ago
  What about installing an intermediate linux system? Like 1. start with window pre-installed 2. install any linux distro, fully overwriting the OEM 3. re-install windows, from microsoft I'd say just stop at step 2 ;) but I can understand that not everybody can do this (eg: work computer) but want a clean OS. will this method work to remove such bloatware?
  - mikeash 11y ago
    It won't work unless you manage to flash the UEFI firmware.
  - morcheeba 11y ago
    This won't work because the firmware will write a file to your hard drive with the bloatware. It's scary that firmware will modify my filesystem - lots of damage could happen here. Also, instead of step 2, it would make more sense to boot linux on a usb stick and use dd to erase the hard drive -- this is more complete than installing another OS... but still useless if the firmware is working against you.
    - lmz 11y ago
      In this case Windows will write to your filesystem, not the firmware. Of course there is nothing stopping a firmware from writing to the disk before it loads any OS, but that is true with any OS not just Windows.
- mikeash 11y ago
  I would change that last part to say "means nothing when you have shady OS makers building this mechanism." I mean, come on, Microsoft, what were you thinking? Vendors gonna vend, so you had to know how this "feature" was going to be used.
prodmerc 11y ago
Yeah, so that may not be possible. I have a HP laptop with a Windows 7 license key under the battery and I can only install Windows 7 from HP recovery disks. Of course, I opted to say "fuck you" and torrented a Win7 installation disk and activator, but that is not an option most of the time.

wlesieutre 11y ago

Or buy "Signature Edition" from Microsoft http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/Signature-Edition-Computers/categoryID.69916600 http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/Signatur...

astrodust 11y ago
So buy it twice to get a good copy? Microsoft really needs to reel in the bad behaviour on the part of the OEMs.
- wlesieutre 11y ago
  No no, sorry. Signature edition is buying the computer itself, not rebuying the OS. They're computers from Dell/Toshiba/Acer/etc. sold directly by Microsoft without any garbageware. Saves you the hassle of having to do a clean install after you buy it.
  - astrodust 11y ago
    Do you have a link that explains what this is? The previous one dumped me on some random Microsoft Store page.
    - wlesieutre 11y ago
      Hm, link works for me. Maybe MS is doing a location based redirect or something? Try google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoftstore.com%2Fstore%2Fmsusa%2Fen_US%2Fcat%2FSignature-Edition-Computers%2FcategoryID.69916600&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%...
- scholia 11y ago
  The US government launched a massive anti-trust case against Microsoft to enable OEMs to do whatever they wanted. It cost Microsoft many billions of dollars, almost had the company broken up, and put them under close Department of Justice supervision for a decade. I don't think Microsoft will risk anything like that again....
  - Tloewald 11y ago
    Microsoft didn't get sued for trying to make installing Windows easier. It got sued for making changes in Windows designed to damage competitors (specifically Netscape, Sun, Borland, and Apple) and publicly and repeatedly lying about it.
    - scholia 11y ago
      The heart of the case was whether OEMs could install Netscape and/or remove IE. One direct result was that Microsoft could not insist on its preferred installation of Windows. Microsoft was also prevented from charging the major OEMs different prices, which was its main way of rewarding OEMs for doing installations the way Microsoft wanted.
      - Tloewald 11y ago
        This is true -- but again Microsoft got caught lying about how IE's functionality was "intrinsic" to Windows (which was why it prevented IE from being uninstalled). It was also forcing PC manufacturers to pay a royalty for every PC sold, whether or not it was bundled with DOS or Windows (which damaged rivals like Digital Research -- the company Microsoft essentially stole DOS from, but that's another story).
        scholia 11y ago
        > how IE's functionality was "intrinsic" to Windows Microsoft had been forced to sign a consent decree in 1995, which prevented it from tying new products to the OS but specifically allowed it to add new features to the OS. It therefore didn't have much choice about its arguments, though (like every other OS supplier) it obviously wanted to include a browser. Equally obviously, delivering a free browser as part of the OS was good for consumers, which is why Microsoft won the browser bundling case on appeal. Microsoft had also componentized the browser so that different functions could be used by other programs, which to some extent, did make it part of the OS. (Much of the anti-trust case argument on that topic was phenomenally stupid.) >It was also forcing PC manufacturers to pay a royalty for every PC sold, whether or not it was bundled with DOS or Windows Don't think so. That was a deal offered to some OEMs, but as far as I know, it was never forced on anybody. In any case, the US Justice Department banned the idea in 1994. I tend to think 21+ years is a bit of long time to hold a grudge about something that was killed before it took off. > Digital Research -- the company Microsoft essentially stole DOS from, but that's another story Well, DR screwed up massively by refusing to sign a deal with IBM, then by charging too much for DR DOS, and then Apple screwed it in a court case over the UI in DR GEM. Either way, DR was dead long before the Microsoft anti-trust suit.
r00fus 11y ago
At this point, the price "advantage" for Windows PCs vs. a Mac is tenuous at best... especially since a lot of folks buy on some "30% off this week" deal with Dell/Lenovo/etc.

gootdude 11y ago

Lenovo uses Microsoft Windows Platform Binary Table to install bloatware, which gets around any kind of clean install/reset. Clean install for Windows means nothing when you have shady vendors utilizing this mechanism.

_lce0 11y ago
What about installing an intermediate linux system? Like 1. start with window pre-installed 2. install any linux distro, fully overwriting the OEM 3. re-install windows, from microsoft I'd say just stop at step 2 ;) but I can understand that not everybody can do this (eg: work computer) but want a clean OS. will this method work to remove such bloatware?
- mikeash 11y ago
  It won't work unless you manage to flash the UEFI firmware.
- morcheeba 11y ago
  This won't work because the firmware will write a file to your hard drive with the bloatware. It's scary that firmware will modify my filesystem - lots of damage could happen here. Also, instead of step 2, it would make more sense to boot linux on a usb stick and use dd to erase the hard drive -- this is more complete than installing another OS... but still useless if the firmware is working against you.
  - lmz 11y ago
    In this case Windows will write to your filesystem, not the firmware. Of course there is nothing stopping a firmware from writing to the disk before it loads any OS, but that is true with any OS not just Windows.
mikeash 11y ago
I would change that last part to say "means nothing when you have shady OS makers building this mechanism." I mean, come on, Microsoft, what were you thinking? Vendors gonna vend, so you had to know how this "feature" was going to be used.

prodmerc 11y ago

Yeah, so that may not be possible. I have a HP laptop with a Windows 7 license key under the battery and I can only install Windows 7 from HP recovery disks. Of course, I opted to say "fuck you" and torrented a Win7 installation disk and activator, but that is not an option most of the time.