4 ms·

I read this article as quasi-racist fearmongering, jumping on the Trump bandwagon for circulation figures. Shameful yellow journalism, in other words. Imagine

by cstross 11y ago

I read this article as quasi-racist fearmongering, jumping on the Trump bandwagon for circulation figures. Shameful yellow journalism, in other words. Imagine how this article would read if for "muslim" you substituted "hispanic" or "jew" or "african-american". Alarmist? Racist? Hostile? Got it in one. Now how is structuring the narrative around muslims any different? (There's a classic saying in newsroom culture: "if it bleeds, it leads" -- which is why for the past week our news has been saturated with the muslims are coming! Be afraid! rhetoric. It doesn't sell newspapers to point out that there are around 2 billion muslims world-wide, of whom maybe 20,000 are active jihadis in AQ and Da'esh; the rest are just ordinary folks who are happy to get along, and overall they've killed vastly fewer people on American or European soil than home-grown terrorists over the past five decades.) NB: expecting downvotes, because nothing triggers a witch-hunt like a media panic over [insert terrifying incomprehensible foreign threat here].

ps4fanboy 11y ago
Imagine this same article but substituting it for startup hipsters. Jacking up the rent driving their illegal startup buses. I would argue most of the people who are for these immigrant communities are also against the kind of gentrification happening in the bay.
bjourne 11y ago
There has been very similar articles "in tone" about Kiryas Joel. F.e http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/kiryas-joel-a-village-with-the-numbers-not-the-image-of-the-poorest-place.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/kiryas-joel-a-vil..., http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/09/nyregion/a-hasidic-village-gets-a-lesson-in-bare-knuckled-politicking.html http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/09/nyregion/a-hasidic-village...
seivan 11y ago
Either you're dishonest with "maybe 20 000 active jihadists" or just unaware. But that claim is laughable given the amount of support Jihadists have. You talk about News Room culture, but you miss there are two sides to it and now you're Chamberlain. ;-) Also I am pretty sure Jews, African-Americans and Hispanics don't got doctrine that tells them to kill apostates. A better comparison would be Westboro Baptist Church. Except they are what, odd 20 people? Islamofascists numbers reach the millions, obviously not all are active jihadists. But many support and finance. This isn't media panic. This is experience before the media even got attention to it. EDIT: Yeah I saw the Wiki page just like you did. I was trying to serve a point. facepalm
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > Either you're dishonest with "maybe 20 000 active jihadists" or just unaware. > Except they are what, odd 20 people? If you're off by a factor of 2 on the Westboro Baptist Church, which you can verify in just about 2 seconds it's kind of weird to see you complain about how many active jihadists there are, it's not like they have a registry. Does that make you dishonest, or just unaware? There must be a better way to make your argument.
- fwapost 11y ago
  > A better comparison would be Westboro Baptist Church Not better enough considering the number to date of homosexuals ISIS has tossed off rooftops, compared with the WBC's general standing around and sign-holding.
netman21 11y ago
Completely agree. I live a few miles away from Hamtramck. We go their often for great Polish food. I don't need this kind of fear mongering.
themartorana 11y ago
I'm sure I'm in the minority here (where the word "racist" is thrown around rather liberally and without any mind for "let him who is without sin...") In any case, I can understand the tension. First and perhaps most common is just a fear of changing culture. It happens, and all is fluid, but it's not uncommon. Many people fear change, and I'm not saying it's good to restrict change because of that fear, but I understand the human nature behind it. That said, I'd be upset if I had to hear a call to prayer 5 times a day. I am pretty anti-religion as it goes, which is my own personal bias, but I don't appreciate being forced to tolerate annoyance for someone else's religion. It's the same as people blasting music in the park 5x a day - the idea of noise pollution and disturbing the peace exists for this very reason. Allowing it to continue for what I assume are politically correct reasons is frustrating. I also do not understand why I should be expected to tolerate Islam when it stands against many things I'm for - most egregiously is equal rights for women (not to mention other common religious touch-points like homosexuality, premarital sex, and huge swaths of science education). Islam is most oppressive to women. I hear the argument "Well what if a woman wants to be Muslim?" to which I answer that I'm sure there were conservative women against Suffrage or equal pay or any number of progressive issues for women. Living in peace with our neighbors is fine and expected, and living in a major city as I do, there are people of all creeds and religions - but I'm still going to be annoyed when the National Guard take over the city and lock it down for the Pope (who, as progressive as he is, is still rather homophobic), or when the Nation of Islam is shouting through speakers on the streets, or when some born-again nut is shouting at me through a loud speaker/bull horn about how my whole family is going to burn in Hell. Tolerance for Islam is the new politically correct darling. It's still oppressive to women, it's still an organized religion, and like absolutely everything and everybody in this world, it will take full advantage of the leeway given to it. And so I understand the frustration with certain aspects of what this article touches on.
- seivan 11y ago
  You're not a minority. And the irony is, many moderate muslims agree with you. Unfortunately they are usually called "native informants" by Glenn Greenwald and the loud far reaching islamic imperialist posse thus making you feel like a minority, but you're not.
- 11y ago
imaginenore 11y ago
How is it racist in any way? What race are you talking about? Islam is a religion, not a skin color.
GnwbZHiU 11y ago
I don't think it's fair to say that the article is fearmongering. There are real concerns by the local residents, for example, about the noise from the call to prayer (it can be 5am in the morning). I, too, hate it, I can understand why other people hate it.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  How do you feel about church bells on Sunday morning?
  - GnwbZHiU 11y ago
    In the place where I live, churches do not ring the bell. Even if they do, that's much less then 5 times a day.
  - lmm 11y ago
    Immensely pissed off and I wish there were a way I could do something about them. Why?
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      Because to me it is exactly as irritating as the 'calls to prayer' but since we seem to accept the one I guess we have no option but to accept the other as well. I'm trying to imagine the poor people living within earshot of both a church and a mosque.
      - Mithaldu 11y ago
        Who says we accept them? Some people accept them, some people accept them in moderation, some people move away, some people look for options: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10614084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10614084
        jacquesm 11y ago
        It's super annoying but depending on the value of 'tradition' (whatever that means) the composition of the local council (which the article here actually refers to) and the laws in place already you may or may not be able to find a judge willing to put a stop to it. This can be an extremely long drawn out battle. Churches get away with lots of stuff that otherwise would not be tolerated.
venomsnake 11y ago
> Imagine how this article would read if for "muslim" you substituted "hispanic" or "jew" or "african-american". Alarmist? Racist? Hostile? Got it in one. Now how is structuring the narrative around muslims any different? Religion is not like race. Religion is a choice that could be changed within a second with zero effort whatsoever.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > Religion is a choice that could be changed within a second with zero effort whatsoever. Race you can't change, religion you can. That we agree on, there is plenty of evidence that this is possible. However, 'race' is often in the eye of the beholder and religion, how ever easy it is to change in principle has a nasty habit of becoming an integral part of the identity of the practitioner and it can be extremely hard to get rid of it, definitely not a 'zero effort whatsoever' thing, more like an extremely invasive review of what makes up the self. Think of it as a psychological crisis and not many people go that route head-on. If anything it is usually a very slow process stretching out over many years where disillusion plays a major role. So not quite 'changed within a second'.
- raverbashing 11y ago
  Unless you live in a Muslim country and wants to change to something else, then you are killed or at least has committed a crime.
fwapost 11y ago
> I read this article as quasi-racist fearmongering, jumping on the Trump bandwagon for circulation figures. Shameful yellow journalism, in other words. The Washington Post is extremely left-leaning. In fact, they recently published an editorial all but equating the US with Nazi Germany should we refuse to admit Syrian refugees. The article reads to me like a typical "changing neighborhood" piece, albeit one where the author perhaps failed to toe the party line sufficiently to your liking. If you really believe the Post is "jumping on the Trump bandwagon," you clearly haven't read them enough. > It doesn't sell newspapers to point out that there are around 2 billion muslims world-wide, of whom maybe 20,000 are active jihadis in AQ and Da'esh; the rest are just ordinary folks who are happy to get along Just ordinary folks who are happy to get along--and who broadly support the death penalty for apostasy, the stoning of adulterers, and making Sharia the binding law of the land: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religi... > NB: expecting downvotes Really? Expecting downvotes on HN for criticizing an article on Muslims that wasn't a complete whitewash? I'm quite confident my comments will end up subzero long before yours. And by the way, don't you have some critical comments to moderate on your echo chamber of a blog? Must keep those "safe spaces" safe, after all.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Typical changing neighborhood piece? "In many ways, Hamtramck is a microcosm of the fears gripping parts of the country since the Islamic State’s attacks on Paris: The influx of Muslims here has profoundly unsettled some residents of the town long known for its love of dancing, beer, paczki pastries and the pope." Fearmongering, pure and simple. Won't somebody think of the dancing, the beer, the pastries and the pope. How about waiting to see what that majority Muslim council gets up to before condemning them? If they do something about the kielbasa then maybe it's time to start articles like these.
  - fwapost 11y ago
    Typical in that these articles often cover the ethnic, religious, or other tensions that result from demographic shifts within a community. Look at any article on the gentrification of some historically black neighborhood.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
raverbashing 11y ago
Just a small note, it's not racist if one is stating facts Am I racist for not wanting to get a horn or some loud noise 5x a day? So be it

by cstross 11y ago

ps4fanboy 11y ago

Imagine this same article but substituting it for startup hipsters. Jacking up the rent driving their illegal startup buses. I would argue most of the people who are for these immigrant communities are also against the kind of gentrification happening in the bay.

bjourne 11y ago

There has been very similar articles "in tone" about Kiryas Joel. F.e http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/kiryas-joel-a-village-with-the-numbers-not-the-image-of-the-poorest-place.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/kiryas-joel-a-vil..., http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/09/nyregion/a-hasidic-village-gets-a-lesson-in-bare-knuckled-politicking.html http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/09/nyregion/a-hasidic-village...

seivan 11y ago

Either you're dishonest with "maybe 20 000 active jihadists" or just unaware. But that claim is laughable given the amount of support Jihadists have. You talk about News Room culture, but you miss there are two sides to it and now you're Chamberlain. ;-) Also I am pretty sure Jews, African-Americans and Hispanics don't got doctrine that tells them to kill apostates. A better comparison would be Westboro Baptist Church. Except they are what, odd 20 people? Islamofascists numbers reach the millions, obviously not all are active jihadists. But many support and finance. This isn't media panic. This is experience before the media even got attention to it. EDIT: Yeah I saw the Wiki page just like you did. I was trying to serve a point. facepalm

jacquesm 11y ago
> Either you're dishonest with "maybe 20 000 active jihadists" or just unaware. > Except they are what, odd 20 people? If you're off by a factor of 2 on the Westboro Baptist Church, which you can verify in just about 2 seconds it's kind of weird to see you complain about how many active jihadists there are, it's not like they have a registry. Does that make you dishonest, or just unaware? There must be a better way to make your argument.
fwapost 11y ago
> A better comparison would be Westboro Baptist Church Not better enough considering the number to date of homosexuals ISIS has tossed off rooftops, compared with the WBC's general standing around and sign-holding.

netman21 11y ago

Completely agree. I live a few miles away from Hamtramck. We go their often for great Polish food. I don't need this kind of fear mongering.

themartorana 11y ago

I'm sure I'm in the minority here (where the word "racist" is thrown around rather liberally and without any mind for "let him who is without sin...") In any case, I can understand the tension. First and perhaps most common is just a fear of changing culture. It happens, and all is fluid, but it's not uncommon. Many people fear change, and I'm not saying it's good to restrict change because of that fear, but I understand the human nature behind it. That said, I'd be upset if I had to hear a call to prayer 5 times a day. I am pretty anti-religion as it goes, which is my own personal bias, but I don't appreciate being forced to tolerate annoyance for someone else's religion. It's the same as people blasting music in the park 5x a day - the idea of noise pollution and disturbing the peace exists for this very reason. Allowing it to continue for what I assume are politically correct reasons is frustrating. I also do not understand why I should be expected to tolerate Islam when it stands against many things I'm for - most egregiously is equal rights for women (not to mention other common religious touch-points like homosexuality, premarital sex, and huge swaths of science education). Islam is most oppressive to women. I hear the argument "Well what if a woman wants to be Muslim?" to which I answer that I'm sure there were conservative women against Suffrage or equal pay or any number of progressive issues for women. Living in peace with our neighbors is fine and expected, and living in a major city as I do, there are people of all creeds and religions - but I'm still going to be annoyed when the National Guard take over the city and lock it down for the Pope (who, as progressive as he is, is still rather homophobic), or when the Nation of Islam is shouting through speakers on the streets, or when some born-again nut is shouting at me through a loud speaker/bull horn about how my whole family is going to burn in Hell. Tolerance for Islam is the new politically correct darling. It's still oppressive to women, it's still an organized religion, and like absolutely everything and everybody in this world, it will take full advantage of the leeway given to it. And so I understand the frustration with certain aspects of what this article touches on.

seivan 11y ago
You're not a minority. And the irony is, many moderate muslims agree with you. Unfortunately they are usually called "native informants" by Glenn Greenwald and the loud far reaching islamic imperialist posse thus making you feel like a minority, but you're not.
11y ago

imaginenore 11y ago

How is it racist in any way? What race are you talking about? Islam is a religion, not a skin color.

GnwbZHiU 11y ago

I don't think it's fair to say that the article is fearmongering. There are real concerns by the local residents, for example, about the noise from the call to prayer (it can be 5am in the morning). I, too, hate it, I can understand why other people hate it.

jacquesm 11y ago
How do you feel about church bells on Sunday morning?
- GnwbZHiU 11y ago
  In the place where I live, churches do not ring the bell. Even if they do, that's much less then 5 times a day.
- lmm 11y ago
  Immensely pissed off and I wish there were a way I could do something about them. Why?
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    Because to me it is exactly as irritating as the 'calls to prayer' but since we seem to accept the one I guess we have no option but to accept the other as well. I'm trying to imagine the poor people living within earshot of both a church and a mosque.
    - Mithaldu 11y ago
      Who says we accept them? Some people accept them, some people accept them in moderation, some people move away, some people look for options: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10614084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10614084
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        It's super annoying but depending on the value of 'tradition' (whatever that means) the composition of the local council (which the article here actually refers to) and the laws in place already you may or may not be able to find a judge willing to put a stop to it. This can be an extremely long drawn out battle. Churches get away with lots of stuff that otherwise would not be tolerated.

venomsnake 11y ago

> Imagine how this article would read if for "muslim" you substituted "hispanic" or "jew" or "african-american". Alarmist? Racist? Hostile? Got it in one. Now how is structuring the narrative around muslims any different? Religion is not like race. Religion is a choice that could be changed within a second with zero effort whatsoever.

jacquesm 11y ago
> Religion is a choice that could be changed within a second with zero effort whatsoever. Race you can't change, religion you can. That we agree on, there is plenty of evidence that this is possible. However, 'race' is often in the eye of the beholder and religion, how ever easy it is to change in principle has a nasty habit of becoming an integral part of the identity of the practitioner and it can be extremely hard to get rid of it, definitely not a 'zero effort whatsoever' thing, more like an extremely invasive review of what makes up the self. Think of it as a psychological crisis and not many people go that route head-on. If anything it is usually a very slow process stretching out over many years where disillusion plays a major role. So not quite 'changed within a second'.
raverbashing 11y ago
Unless you live in a Muslim country and wants to change to something else, then you are killed or at least has committed a crime.

fwapost 11y ago

> I read this article as quasi-racist fearmongering, jumping on the Trump bandwagon for circulation figures. Shameful yellow journalism, in other words. The Washington Post is extremely left-leaning. In fact, they recently published an editorial all but equating the US with Nazi Germany should we refuse to admit Syrian refugees. The article reads to me like a typical "changing neighborhood" piece, albeit one where the author perhaps failed to toe the party line sufficiently to your liking. If you really believe the Post is "jumping on the Trump bandwagon," you clearly haven't read them enough. > It doesn't sell newspapers to point out that there are around 2 billion muslims world-wide, of whom maybe 20,000 are active jihadis in AQ and Da'esh; the rest are just ordinary folks who are happy to get along Just ordinary folks who are happy to get along--and who broadly support the death penalty for apostasy, the stoning of adulterers, and making Sharia the binding law of the land: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religi... > NB: expecting downvotes Really? Expecting downvotes on HN for criticizing an article on Muslims that wasn't a complete whitewash? I'm quite confident my comments will end up subzero long before yours. And by the way, don't you have some critical comments to moderate on your echo chamber of a blog? Must keep those "safe spaces" safe, after all.

jacquesm 11y ago
Typical changing neighborhood piece? "In many ways, Hamtramck is a microcosm of the fears gripping parts of the country since the Islamic State’s attacks on Paris: The influx of Muslims here has profoundly unsettled some residents of the town long known for its love of dancing, beer, paczki pastries and the pope." Fearmongering, pure and simple. Won't somebody think of the dancing, the beer, the pastries and the pope. How about waiting to see what that majority Muslim council gets up to before condemning them? If they do something about the kielbasa then maybe it's time to start articles like these.
- fwapost 11y ago
  Typical in that these articles often cover the ethnic, religious, or other tensions that result from demographic shifts within a community. Look at any article on the gentrification of some historically black neighborhood.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

raverbashing 11y ago

Just a small note, it's not racist if one is stating facts Am I racist for not wanting to get a horn or some loud noise 5x a day? So be it