7 ms·

Is there a Belgium? (1999)

73 points by atombender 11y ago

jcranmer 11y ago
See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlwHotpl9DA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlwHotpl9DA
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- leoc 11y ago
  Note also the 500 downvotes. ;)
lobster_johnson 11y ago
For those who don't know the author, this essay is by the great, late British historian Tony Judt. He frequently wrote about post-war European history and, as a former Zionist, was a well-known and sometimes controversial critic of Israel.
- huac 11y ago
  half-serious: is there ever a 'non-controversial' critic of anything?
  - jstalin 11y ago
    I'm guessing most critics of Hitler are noncontroversial.
    - ghaff 11y ago
      While true, in general use, calling someone a critic of XYZ tends to imply that there is a (mainstream) constituency that is not critical of XYZ.
  - hguant 11y ago
    Not to be pendant in, but it depends on what you mean by critic. Max Weber and Erich Fromm were critics of Marx and Freud who agreed with much of what they had to say. Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" is...well it's many things but it advocates rationality and a marriage of pure reason with experience. Ann Coulter is a critic of the Obama administration and liberalism in general.
- mturmon 11y ago
  For more of Judt's take on how the Flanders/Wallonia split has played out, here is an out-take from Judt's acclaimed survey Postwar: http://faroutliers.blogspot.com/2007/10/judt-on-belgian-identity-politics.html http://faroutliers.blogspot.com/2007/10/judt-on-belgian-iden... Anyone at all interested in European history would enjoy his essays and this book. Deep and erudite, yet with an approachable narrative voice.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Wow there's definitely material here for a board game - play the Socialists, the Catholics or the Liberals, vie for power, influence and wealth! Build your 'pillar' by coalescing local power into regional influence!
- lobster_johnson 11y ago
  That's a great idea. "Belgium: The Board Game". Just be careful with the "Scandals & Corruption" expansion pack, it's pretty NSFW.
  - NicoJuicy 11y ago
    That could be the European expansion pack with Karel De Gucht for example ( tax fraud + european commissioner for trade), don't forget electrawinds, tecteo, ...
    - charlesdm 11y ago
      Not to nitpick, but, innocent until proven guilty? To accuse someone of tax fraud is morally repugnant, when both the facts and courts say otherwise. This isn't really a scandal, more of a personal matter (for him).
      - NicoJuicy 11y ago
        First of all: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_De_Gucht#Belastingontduiking https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_De_Gucht#Belastingontdui... ( dutch version) - here is more information then the censored english version. And second, i "know" people who were pretty acquanted with the sale of the justice building in Furnes ( West - Flanders ), where Karel De Gucht was one of the so called secret investors and let's not forget who was closely involved with that: Yves Vanmaele. There was a "documentary" on Terzake about him.. Where there is smoke, there is fire. But people who live nearby, see more smoke than others :) It's hard to put in hard evidence, when politicians and judges shake hands and forgive each others sins without a trial. It's like bringing in kadhafi under the condition that he will be judged by his own friends ( to put it in the extreme). I know personally 3 friends who's cases were influenced ( good or not) because of "Vanmaele" personally. If you speak Dutch: http://nieuws.vtm.be/binnenland/90071-integraal-de-gewraakte-telefacts http://nieuws.vtm.be/binnenland/90071-integraal-de-gewraakte... I hate to say this stuff above, because it sounds so conspiracy like. But it's more like a well known secret in the West-Flanders. Everyone here knows, but why would you take a risk, with something you have no business with and agains very "powerfull" / influential people. ( judges, politicians, Trade Commisioner of the EU) Edit: I'm watching the video again, it's practicly everything i'm saying here (although i mostly forgot about the video )
dang 11y ago
As long as we're on about Belgium, here's what Baudelaire had to say: http://harpers.org/archive/2014/08/brussels-spleen/ http://harpers.org/archive/2014/08/brussels-spleen/. But it's more Baudelaire than Belgium.
- lobster_johnson 11y ago
  Thanks. Judt actually mentions, and quotes from, Baudelaire several times in his essay.
WildUtah 11y ago
On the question of whether there is a Belgium in 2015, consider the adventures of Tintin in Molenbeek: http://twitpic.com/9sbafs http://twitpic.com/9sbafs
philjohn 11y ago
I was born in Belgium (to ex pat parents) and lived there until I was 18. I loved my time there, but it's definitely an odd place. The strife between the Walloons and Flemings (the roots of which stretch back a long time indeed), the large groups of ex pats working for multinational companies, the European Parliament, SHAPE and NATO. Did wonders for my language skills having a steady stream of people to converse with in both French and Dutch though. See also the 2007 political crisis where they went without successfully forming a new government following elections. Despite being a young(ish) country, there's a wealth of culture from Adolf Sax, Hergé to Magritte and sporting icons such as Eddy Merckx.
keyle 11y ago
I'm from Belgium and I left when I was 21, 15 years ago. As much as I love my country and will never deny the fact that I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for it, its laws and its freedom; I too am puzzled by it. The whole thing always felt like "here is a piece of land, no one really wants it, let's just make a country, and then divide it in half " (in thirds really, as Brussels thinks it's above it). I love Belgium for not being France, not Holland and not Germany, but its identity is in constant crisis. For too long it's been trashed by the other countries. Its biggest demise is trying to compete with them, to be like them. Half the country pretend it's dutch, while most dutch can't understand them well. The other half pretends its french, but only for the good parts, and has a funny accent. And a large town thinks it's German (Eupen). Then in the center, you got this weird beast that is Brussels, that would like to pretend that it's more European than Belgian. These are my feelings and each to their own. But one thing is for sure, Belgium is defined by its dysfunctional history. This culture I grew up in is unique. It's a melting pot of social laws, acceptance and embracing cultures. Sadly, it's been abused and walked over from every corner. If anything good came out of it, it's probably Europe. But that's arguable, because the Euro screwed everyone up.
- vermooten 11y ago
  I think a lot of countries have unusual beginnings, various smaller territories getting stuck together. Hello Italy. Belgium is both the cycling and trance capital of the world, 2 things so close to my heart, and I love it.
- personjerry 11y ago
  > Sadly, it's been abused and walked over from every corner. To be fair, Belgium has done its share of abusing (in which 10 million Africans were murdered and many more enslaved under Belgian imperialism): http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/35/181.html http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/35/181.html
leoc 11y ago
It has to be added that a significant amount of "pillarisation" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarisation was the norm, not an exception, across western Europe in the nineteenth century. Usually it was either a Catholic and a Protestant pillar, or a Catholic and a liberal or socialist one, or some combination. A lot of it blew away around the 'Sixties, but significant amounts remain. It wasn't and isn't unheard of in the US either, viz. for example the HBCUs or the Evangelical parallel universe.
johansch 11y ago
Belgium: Home of pedophiles, terrorists and wonderful strong beer. Seriously, that is what I know about the country.
- J_Darnley 11y ago
  Add to that: world record holder of longest time to form a government. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_Belgian_government_formation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_Belgian_govern...
J_Darnley 11y ago
There won't be for much longer. No state can remain independent in the Eurozone. Its survival will require more integration and centralisation. Time will tell whether this applies for other EU members who don't use the Euro. Just quite what the separatists hope to get from independence, I don't know. They won't gain more sovereignty from it. Then there's the issue of the police state experiment that was run last night. People were persuaded to drop their free speech in exchange for cat pictures. By and large people seem to have fallen for it.
vidarh 11y ago
Made me think of the old classic "Belgium Doesn't Exist!" or "Land of Sprouts and Chocolate, I Think Not.": http://zapatopi.net/belgium/ http://zapatopi.net/belgium/
mikhailfranco 11y ago
Perhaps it's entirely appropriate that the two most famous Belgians (in the English speaking world) are fictitious: Tintin and Hercule Poirot.
DouglasRodgers 11y ago
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DouglasRodgers 11y ago
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73 points by atombender 11y ago

jcranmer 11y ago

See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlwHotpl9DA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlwHotpl9DA

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
leoc 11y ago
Note also the 500 downvotes. ;)

lobster_johnson 11y ago

For those who don't know the author, this essay is by the great, late British historian Tony Judt. He frequently wrote about post-war European history and, as a former Zionist, was a well-known and sometimes controversial critic of Israel.

huac 11y ago
half-serious: is there ever a 'non-controversial' critic of anything?
- jstalin 11y ago
  I'm guessing most critics of Hitler are noncontroversial.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    While true, in general use, calling someone a critic of XYZ tends to imply that there is a (mainstream) constituency that is not critical of XYZ.
- hguant 11y ago
  Not to be pendant in, but it depends on what you mean by critic. Max Weber and Erich Fromm were critics of Marx and Freud who agreed with much of what they had to say. Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" is...well it's many things but it advocates rationality and a marriage of pure reason with experience. Ann Coulter is a critic of the Obama administration and liberalism in general.
mturmon 11y ago
For more of Judt's take on how the Flanders/Wallonia split has played out, here is an out-take from Judt's acclaimed survey Postwar: http://faroutliers.blogspot.com/2007/10/judt-on-belgian-identity-politics.html http://faroutliers.blogspot.com/2007/10/judt-on-belgian-iden... Anyone at all interested in European history would enjoy his essays and this book. Deep and erudite, yet with an approachable narrative voice.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

JoeAltmaier 11y ago

Wow there's definitely material here for a board game - play the Socialists, the Catholics or the Liberals, vie for power, influence and wealth! Build your 'pillar' by coalescing local power into regional influence!

lobster_johnson 11y ago
That's a great idea. "Belgium: The Board Game". Just be careful with the "Scandals & Corruption" expansion pack, it's pretty NSFW.
- NicoJuicy 11y ago
  That could be the European expansion pack with Karel De Gucht for example ( tax fraud + european commissioner for trade), don't forget electrawinds, tecteo, ...
  - charlesdm 11y ago
    Not to nitpick, but, innocent until proven guilty? To accuse someone of tax fraud is morally repugnant, when both the facts and courts say otherwise. This isn't really a scandal, more of a personal matter (for him).
    - NicoJuicy 11y ago
      First of all: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_De_Gucht#Belastingontduiking https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_De_Gucht#Belastingontdui... ( dutch version) - here is more information then the censored english version. And second, i "know" people who were pretty acquanted with the sale of the justice building in Furnes ( West - Flanders ), where Karel De Gucht was one of the so called secret investors and let's not forget who was closely involved with that: Yves Vanmaele. There was a "documentary" on Terzake about him.. Where there is smoke, there is fire. But people who live nearby, see more smoke than others :) It's hard to put in hard evidence, when politicians and judges shake hands and forgive each others sins without a trial. It's like bringing in kadhafi under the condition that he will be judged by his own friends ( to put it in the extreme). I know personally 3 friends who's cases were influenced ( good or not) because of "Vanmaele" personally. If you speak Dutch: http://nieuws.vtm.be/binnenland/90071-integraal-de-gewraakte-telefacts http://nieuws.vtm.be/binnenland/90071-integraal-de-gewraakte... I hate to say this stuff above, because it sounds so conspiracy like. But it's more like a well known secret in the West-Flanders. Everyone here knows, but why would you take a risk, with something you have no business with and agains very "powerfull" / influential people. ( judges, politicians, Trade Commisioner of the EU) Edit: I'm watching the video again, it's practicly everything i'm saying here (although i mostly forgot about the video )

dang 11y ago

As long as we're on about Belgium, here's what Baudelaire had to say: http://harpers.org/archive/2014/08/brussels-spleen/ http://harpers.org/archive/2014/08/brussels-spleen/. But it's more Baudelaire than Belgium.

lobster_johnson 11y ago
Thanks. Judt actually mentions, and quotes from, Baudelaire several times in his essay.

WildUtah 11y ago

On the question of whether there is a Belgium in 2015, consider the adventures of Tintin in Molenbeek: http://twitpic.com/9sbafs http://twitpic.com/9sbafs

philjohn 11y ago

I was born in Belgium (to ex pat parents) and lived there until I was 18. I loved my time there, but it's definitely an odd place. The strife between the Walloons and Flemings (the roots of which stretch back a long time indeed), the large groups of ex pats working for multinational companies, the European Parliament, SHAPE and NATO. Did wonders for my language skills having a steady stream of people to converse with in both French and Dutch though. See also the 2007 political crisis where they went without successfully forming a new government following elections. Despite being a young(ish) country, there's a wealth of culture from Adolf Sax, Hergé to Magritte and sporting icons such as Eddy Merckx.

keyle 11y ago

I'm from Belgium and I left when I was 21, 15 years ago. As much as I love my country and will never deny the fact that I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for it, its laws and its freedom; I too am puzzled by it. The whole thing always felt like "here is a piece of land, no one really wants it, let's just make a country, and then divide it in half " (in thirds really, as Brussels thinks it's above it). I love Belgium for not being France, not Holland and not Germany, but its identity is in constant crisis. For too long it's been trashed by the other countries. Its biggest demise is trying to compete with them, to be like them. Half the country pretend it's dutch, while most dutch can't understand them well. The other half pretends its french, but only for the good parts, and has a funny accent. And a large town thinks it's German (Eupen). Then in the center, you got this weird beast that is Brussels, that would like to pretend that it's more European than Belgian. These are my feelings and each to their own. But one thing is for sure, Belgium is defined by its dysfunctional history. This culture I grew up in is unique. It's a melting pot of social laws, acceptance and embracing cultures. Sadly, it's been abused and walked over from every corner. If anything good came out of it, it's probably Europe. But that's arguable, because the Euro screwed everyone up.

vermooten 11y ago
I think a lot of countries have unusual beginnings, various smaller territories getting stuck together. Hello Italy. Belgium is both the cycling and trance capital of the world, 2 things so close to my heart, and I love it.
personjerry 11y ago
> Sadly, it's been abused and walked over from every corner. To be fair, Belgium has done its share of abusing (in which 10 million Africans were murdered and many more enslaved under Belgian imperialism): http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/35/181.html http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/35/181.html

leoc 11y ago

It has to be added that a significant amount of "pillarisation" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarisation was the norm, not an exception, across western Europe in the nineteenth century. Usually it was either a Catholic and a Protestant pillar, or a Catholic and a liberal or socialist one, or some combination. A lot of it blew away around the 'Sixties, but significant amounts remain. It wasn't and isn't unheard of in the US either, viz. for example the HBCUs or the Evangelical parallel universe.

johansch 11y ago

Belgium: Home of pedophiles, terrorists and wonderful strong beer. Seriously, that is what I know about the country.

J_Darnley 11y ago
Add to that: world record holder of longest time to form a government. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_Belgian_government_formation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_Belgian_govern...

J_Darnley 11y ago

There won't be for much longer. No state can remain independent in the Eurozone. Its survival will require more integration and centralisation. Time will tell whether this applies for other EU members who don't use the Euro. Just quite what the separatists hope to get from independence, I don't know. They won't gain more sovereignty from it. Then there's the issue of the police state experiment that was run last night. People were persuaded to drop their free speech in exchange for cat pictures. By and large people seem to have fallen for it.

vidarh 11y ago

Made me think of the old classic "Belgium Doesn't Exist!" or "Land of Sprouts and Chocolate, I Think Not.": http://zapatopi.net/belgium/ http://zapatopi.net/belgium/

mikhailfranco 11y ago

Perhaps it's entirely appropriate that the two most famous Belgians (in the English speaking world) are fictitious: Tintin and Hercule Poirot.

DouglasRodgers 11y ago

Hello Everyone, CHRISTMAS loan at your doorstep,Parents/Guardians,celebrate your CHRISTMAS in a grand style by securing a loan from us today. We are legitimate and reputable Government approved loan Company, we offer personal loans, business loans, mortgage loans and all kinds of loan to individuals and companies with bad credit records or Are you in need of money to pay off bills and invest on business. Apply with us today and get fast approval today. 100% GUARANTEED Contact us via email: Douglasrodgersloanfirm@live.com Tel: +447937453831 Website: www.douglasrodgersloanfirm.tk MAKE YOUR XMAS CELEBRATION A REMARKABLE ONE!!

DouglasRodgers 11y ago