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Why is Hacker News encouraging a project that aims to defraud advertisers and websites? It's hard enough to run an ad-based business without having to deal with

Why is Hacker News encouraging a project that aims to defraud advertisers and websites? It's hard enough to run an ad-based business without having to deal with getting blocked by Google from fraudulent clicks. If you don't like ads, the solution is simple -- don't go to sites that have them.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
It's not Hacker News (site) encouraging a project, it's users of Hacker News. Also, I don't see how this is defrauding (in legal sense), it's just shoving shitty behaviour back at the source. Also, even if you don't like it, it's still more ethical than what Uber is doing, so I think it should be encouraged at least as much in the tech world. ;).
- sparkzilla 11y ago
  Because Uber, a company in a completely unrelated field, is engaging in what you see as unethical behavior does not give you the right to defraud other companies of any kind. It's fraud because it aims to register false clicks to deceive and confuse the companies that provide ads. It causes trouble for website owners, who can easily lose their entire income stream because they will be banned if the amount of false clicks on their site is deemed to be too high. If you don't like ads, don't go to sites that have them.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Uber is related here because you asked about HN (site or community) supporting something, and Uber is one of the most popular startups in the tech crowd. I further conclude that if said crowd doesn't seem to mind Uber's behaviour then it definitely shouldn't mind this extension, because it also provides value to users and, as opposed to Uber, is not actually illegal. But let's drop that, it was just me being snarky in the morning. It's not a fraud, no matter how advertisers want to call it. It wouldn't fly in court. You serve me some buttons, I click them. I haven't signed any document, implicitly or explicitly, between me and ad network that would oblige me to view or click their buttons in a way they want it to. So let's not use strong words where they don't belong. Yes, it aims to register false clicks to deceive and confuse the companies that provide ads - because those companies give negative utility to users an it's in everyone's personal interest to get rid of them. It's tracking, it's spreading malware, but it's also simply shoving ugly shit in users' face. We have a right to strike back. > It causes trouble for website owners, who can easily lose their entire income stream because they will be banned if the amount of false clicks on their site is deemed to be too high. I say, good riddance. Site quality and trustworthiness is anti-correlated with ad count anyway. > If you don't like ads, don't go to sites that have them. No. If you don't like people not viewing your ads, paywall. Oh, but your paywall has to be leaky or else Google goes away? Well, welcome to the Internet. It was supposed to be a medium of information exchange, not a shopping mall.
    - sparkzilla 11y ago
      Some men just want the world to burn.
      - TeMPOraL 11y ago
        And some just want to burn out the weeds that have taken over the garden. You should consider it lucky that we're only talking about this extension. Per the other article that's currently on the front page[0], we could instead build an army of robots that would roam the world and punch advertisers to keep them down. [0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10611053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10611053
  - pnt12 11y ago
    An income stream means nothing when you spy on all your users for a couple of bucks. Maybe next time show them a huge red sign saying "to use this site, you must let us collect and sell all your private information". No legalese, just plain english, let the users know what they're getting into. Then we can talk about contracts and frauds. Fortunately, ad blockers are pretty popular right now and the agencies will have to get their shit together wether they like it or not. Or maybe come up with even more evil techniques, who knows.
c22 11y ago
Why do you think that random internet commenters posting interesting links and other people discussing them constitutes "Hacker News" encouraging anything? As if this site is a monolithic entity that supports all of your own views?
- sparkzilla 11y ago
  Stories get flagkilled all the time. This isn't a link to a news story about the product, but a link to the product itself.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Flagkilled means enough users exercised their right to vote to kill the story by means of flagging, not that the site unilaterally decided something.
chrisfarms 11y ago
> don't go to sites that have them That's not really a viable solution. You cannot know the site you are about to visit has ads on it or not.
- sparkzilla 11y ago
  It's pretty easy to figure out. You go to the site. You see ads. You stop reading and go somewhere else.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    No, it's the site which is free to refuse serving content if you don't view the ads. I'll happily go somewhere else. Otherwise, I have an ad blocker so that I can go to the site, not see the ads and continue reading. Or if I feel particularly inclined to fight this shitty business model, I may install this ad clicker.
JupiterMoon 11y ago
This is not fraud. Please wind down the libellous hyperbolic language.

TeMPOraL 11y ago

It's not Hacker News (site) encouraging a project, it's users of Hacker News. Also, I don't see how this is defrauding (in legal sense), it's just shoving shitty behaviour back at the source. Also, even if you don't like it, it's still more ethical than what Uber is doing, so I think it should be encouraged at least as much in the tech world. ;).

sparkzilla 11y ago
Because Uber, a company in a completely unrelated field, is engaging in what you see as unethical behavior does not give you the right to defraud other companies of any kind. It's fraud because it aims to register false clicks to deceive and confuse the companies that provide ads. It causes trouble for website owners, who can easily lose their entire income stream because they will be banned if the amount of false clicks on their site is deemed to be too high. If you don't like ads, don't go to sites that have them.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Uber is related here because you asked about HN (site or community) supporting something, and Uber is one of the most popular startups in the tech crowd. I further conclude that if said crowd doesn't seem to mind Uber's behaviour then it definitely shouldn't mind this extension, because it also provides value to users and, as opposed to Uber, is not actually illegal. But let's drop that, it was just me being snarky in the morning. It's not a fraud, no matter how advertisers want to call it. It wouldn't fly in court. You serve me some buttons, I click them. I haven't signed any document, implicitly or explicitly, between me and ad network that would oblige me to view or click their buttons in a way they want it to. So let's not use strong words where they don't belong. Yes, it aims to register false clicks to deceive and confuse the companies that provide ads - because those companies give negative utility to users an it's in everyone's personal interest to get rid of them. It's tracking, it's spreading malware, but it's also simply shoving ugly shit in users' face. We have a right to strike back. > It causes trouble for website owners, who can easily lose their entire income stream because they will be banned if the amount of false clicks on their site is deemed to be too high. I say, good riddance. Site quality and trustworthiness is anti-correlated with ad count anyway. > If you don't like ads, don't go to sites that have them. No. If you don't like people not viewing your ads, paywall. Oh, but your paywall has to be leaky or else Google goes away? Well, welcome to the Internet. It was supposed to be a medium of information exchange, not a shopping mall.
  - sparkzilla 11y ago
    Some men just want the world to burn.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      And some just want to burn out the weeds that have taken over the garden. You should consider it lucky that we're only talking about this extension. Per the other article that's currently on the front page[0], we could instead build an army of robots that would roam the world and punch advertisers to keep them down. [0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10611053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10611053
- pnt12 11y ago
  An income stream means nothing when you spy on all your users for a couple of bucks. Maybe next time show them a huge red sign saying "to use this site, you must let us collect and sell all your private information". No legalese, just plain english, let the users know what they're getting into. Then we can talk about contracts and frauds. Fortunately, ad blockers are pretty popular right now and the agencies will have to get their shit together wether they like it or not. Or maybe come up with even more evil techniques, who knows.

c22 11y ago

Why do you think that random internet commenters posting interesting links and other people discussing them constitutes "Hacker News" encouraging anything? As if this site is a monolithic entity that supports all of your own views?

sparkzilla 11y ago
Stories get flagkilled all the time. This isn't a link to a news story about the product, but a link to the product itself.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Flagkilled means enough users exercised their right to vote to kill the story by means of flagging, not that the site unilaterally decided something.

chrisfarms 11y ago

> don't go to sites that have them That's not really a viable solution. You cannot know the site you are about to visit has ads on it or not.

sparkzilla 11y ago
It's pretty easy to figure out. You go to the site. You see ads. You stop reading and go somewhere else.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  No, it's the site which is free to refuse serving content if you don't view the ads. I'll happily go somewhere else. Otherwise, I have an ad blocker so that I can go to the site, not see the ads and continue reading. Or if I feel particularly inclined to fight this shitty business model, I may install this ad clicker.

JupiterMoon 11y ago

This is not fraud. Please wind down the libellous hyperbolic language.