> Back to my point (I think I have one). Customers rarely understand the feature set and deliverables they need for a given use case when there is a major shif

> Back to my point (I think I have one). Customers rarely understand the feature set and deliverables they need for a given use case when there is a major shift in the way the system delivers that use case. I've been working with a very large company's operation team on containerized PoC of a specific developer's team use case which builds and tests their SaaS software stack. The ops team can't wrap their heads around how the software needs to be changed to enable their move to a containerized solution. They just thought they could "containerize" it for the developers and move on. Guess we should have been talking to the devs instead. One point here about all this is that operations teams and developer teams must work closely together on objectives but their end goals are in direct conflict when it comes to providing infrastructure for software. Ops doesn't want the infrastructure to change much because it becomes difficult to scale and prevents reliable, repeatable root cause analysis when things break. Nobody wants to wake up in the night and troubleshoot stuff one doesn't understand when there are bears at the door. Developers want the infrastructure to be flexible and support doing crazy shit with their software so they can satisfy customer's demands with use cases and requirements, and do it faster than the competitor does. The desire for sales and growth drives the need for it to remain extraordinarily reliable and scalable. Immutability of the infrastructure provides a means by which both devs and ops folks can come together and achieve common goals, while keeping their objectives meet with moving fast (devs) and keeping things reliable (ops). Wanting stateful containers as a feature is simply a misunderstanding of what is needed from the infrastructure based on the developer's standpoint of needing "reliability" from both ops and devs. Reliability of the underlying infrastructure is brought about by making the container's deployments immutable. Reliability of the software is brought about by keeping state for a given configuration once it has been proven to work through many iterations of a given use-case.