4 ms·

This is going to sound impolite, but I can't think of another way to put it: you've been had, you've fallen for the big con at work here, when you say you desp

by Frondo 11y ago

This is going to sound impolite, but I can't think of another way to put it: you've been had, you've fallen for the big con at work here, when you say you despise retirement programs and pensions. I'm young-ish, I have no pension, I work for myself, and I'm definitely not well-off by any stretch. I have no horse in the pension game, except that I'm largely in the same boat as you (I'm guessing). The difference is, I look at the people with pensions and I don't think, "oh those pension-holding fat cats". I look at them and think, what happened to the rest of us? Why is it only the people whose decent standard of living was locked in by law or extensive contracts, why are they the only ones who definitely get to retire now? There is a big con going on here, but it's not those folks with pensions, it's that the rest of us are now reduced to fighting over scraps.

harryh 11y ago
> what happened to the rest of us Most of the private economy switched to individual retirement accounts (401Ks/IRAs) so that you don't have to depend on the ability of a private company that may or may not exists 40 years from now (when you retire) and you can instead depend on yourself. Save some money. It's simple. You'll be fine.
- Frondo 11y ago
  "Same some money. It's simple." Except, it obviously isn't working out in practice. People can't save enough, and it's not just down to a personal failing--it's systemic. People can't save enough because our wages have been separated from our productivity--and kept down--for the last four decades. That's bigger than the individualistic "every man for himself" type of advice that "save some money" sounds like. Besides, the realistic view suggests that something bigger is wrong, and something better should be done, when simplistic advice like that isn't working.
  - harryh 11y ago
    I wasn't talking about "people". I was talking about you. Personally. Frondo.
  - jbuzbee 11y ago
    "People can't save enough" Saving has not been a problem for me and my family. Of course, I've forgone many purchases that others consider essential and we always look for bargains, use coupons, never carry a credit-card balance, etc. And if I feel my wage has "been separated from our productivity" I'm free to demand more or move on.
morgante 11y ago
> you've been had You're right: that is rather impolite. > what happened to the rest of us? Pensions are a fundamentally stupid system. You shouldn't be depending on an employer to fulfill a defined benefit. Even if everything works perfectly (ie. the employer remains solvent and doesn't raid its pension fund), it provides a HUGE disincentive against pursuing job opportunities or entrepreneurship. The solution is that everyone should be saving for themselves. I fail to see the "con" in people saving for their own retirement. The con is that pensioners can use the threat of violence to force me to simultaneously save for my own retirement and pay for theirs when they never saved a penny. Even if defined benefit pensions still existed, I would never get one as I have precisely 0 interest in working for the same employer 10+ years. I don't see why I should be forced to pay for people who are lifers.
- Frondo 11y ago
  Pensions are a fundamentally stupid system? Great, I can get behind that. So is employer-supplied health care. Let's replace them both with a real national pension system and a real national health care system. You're right, people shouldn't have to depend on an employer for retirement (or health care)--that should be up to our government to provide us. As for "violence," I have no idea what you're talking about, unless you're actually suggesting that the pensioners are wheeling their walkers up to you and shaking you down. Remember, taxation isn't violence.
poof131 11y ago
The pensions seem great because they are too good to be true. [1] Many of the public pensions put people in the top quarter of household incomes. So at a time in your life when you aren’t working, your kids are through college, and your house should be paid off, you get a paycheck larger than most Americans. We can’t all be in the top 25% of incomes, nor should we when we aren’t working and the money comes from the government, but that’s the problem with the public pension system. I agree the majority of us are getting screwed, but there are multiple factors: runaway defense spending, never ending bank bailouts, etc, which also include public pensions. http://calcoastnews.com/2014/12/slo-countys-six-figure-pension-club/ http://calcoastnews.com/2014/12/slo-countys-six-figure-pensi...

by Frondo 11y ago

harryh 11y ago

> what happened to the rest of us Most of the private economy switched to individual retirement accounts (401Ks/IRAs) so that you don't have to depend on the ability of a private company that may or may not exists 40 years from now (when you retire) and you can instead depend on yourself. Save some money. It's simple. You'll be fine.

Frondo 11y ago
"Same some money. It's simple." Except, it obviously isn't working out in practice. People can't save enough, and it's not just down to a personal failing--it's systemic. People can't save enough because our wages have been separated from our productivity--and kept down--for the last four decades. That's bigger than the individualistic "every man for himself" type of advice that "save some money" sounds like. Besides, the realistic view suggests that something bigger is wrong, and something better should be done, when simplistic advice like that isn't working.
- harryh 11y ago
  I wasn't talking about "people". I was talking about you. Personally. Frondo.
- jbuzbee 11y ago
  "People can't save enough" Saving has not been a problem for me and my family. Of course, I've forgone many purchases that others consider essential and we always look for bargains, use coupons, never carry a credit-card balance, etc. And if I feel my wage has "been separated from our productivity" I'm free to demand more or move on.

morgante 11y ago

> you've been had You're right: that is rather impolite. > what happened to the rest of us? Pensions are a fundamentally stupid system. You shouldn't be depending on an employer to fulfill a defined benefit. Even if everything works perfectly (ie. the employer remains solvent and doesn't raid its pension fund), it provides a HUGE disincentive against pursuing job opportunities or entrepreneurship. The solution is that everyone should be saving for themselves. I fail to see the "con" in people saving for their own retirement. The con is that pensioners can use the threat of violence to force me to simultaneously save for my own retirement and pay for theirs when they never saved a penny. Even if defined benefit pensions still existed, I would never get one as I have precisely 0 interest in working for the same employer 10+ years. I don't see why I should be forced to pay for people who are lifers.

Frondo 11y ago
Pensions are a fundamentally stupid system? Great, I can get behind that. So is employer-supplied health care. Let's replace them both with a real national pension system and a real national health care system. You're right, people shouldn't have to depend on an employer for retirement (or health care)--that should be up to our government to provide us. As for "violence," I have no idea what you're talking about, unless you're actually suggesting that the pensioners are wheeling their walkers up to you and shaking you down. Remember, taxation isn't violence.

poof131 11y ago

The pensions seem great because they are too good to be true. [1] Many of the public pensions put people in the top quarter of household incomes. So at a time in your life when you aren’t working, your kids are through college, and your house should be paid off, you get a paycheck larger than most Americans. We can’t all be in the top 25% of incomes, nor should we when we aren’t working and the money comes from the government, but that’s the problem with the public pension system. I agree the majority of us are getting screwed, but there are multiple factors: runaway defense spending, never ending bank bailouts, etc, which also include public pensions. http://calcoastnews.com/2014/12/slo-countys-six-figure-pension-club/ http://calcoastnews.com/2014/12/slo-countys-six-figure-pensi...