4 ms·

I agree. The main difference is that all of the fields you've listed already have a formalized study and exam path. Software is one of the few knowledge based

by geebee 11y ago

I agree. The main difference is that all of the fields you've listed already have a formalized study and exam path. Software is one of the few knowledge based fields that you can enter purely on self-study at the highest level (I'm not sure about actuaries, if you studied math on your own, could you enter the actuarial field? Not sure about this one). As a result, I wonder if maybe software developers are a little more inclined, as a "profession", toward paths that are less formalized.

msandford 11y ago
> (I'm not sure about actuaries, if you studied math on your own, could you enter the actuarial field? Not sure about this one). Yes, anyone can take the exams, there are a handful. And if you pass them all nobody really cares about your degree. But from what I gather you'd better be pretty sharp to pull it off.
nmrm2 11y ago
> if you studied math on your own, could you enter the actuarial field? Not sure about this one Yes (edit: accidentally said the opposite of what I meant!). What you need to be able to do is pass the exams. BUT -- plenty of people with math degrees fail these exams. It's a hell of a lot harder than learning how to hack together a RoR site. See e.g., various discussions on http://www.actuarialoutpost.com http://www.actuarialoutpost.com You can also e.g., fill a number of supporting roles around actuaries without a college degree and then demonstrate competence by taking exams. > I wonder if maybe software developers are a little more inclined, as a "profession", toward paths that are less formalized. I think the fact that everyone in software has the same job title makes a huge difference wrt medicine and engineering. The guy hacking together cookie-cutter single server websites calls himself a software developer/engineer just the same as the Ph.D. hacking on compilers or ML algorithms. Everyone inside the field knows there's a huge difference between these two jobs, and that becoming the latter is basically requires a degree (perhaps even an advanced one) or really extraordinary dedication while the former probably doesn't even need a degree at all. So when someone says "do I need a degree to become a software developer? / Is a degree the fastest path to becoming a software developer?", it's an ill-defined question. What do you mean by software developer? Do you want a good salary doing whatever in boom times or do you want to do really technically interesting work with job security even in bust times? Conversely, most other fields tend to differentiate between job titles that require lots of skill and jobs that don't. For example, the difference between various levels of non-doctor healthcare workers (the whole range of nurses, and then everything up/down from there) is very institutionalized. Something similar happens in engineering -- plenty of non-engineers do engineer-y things in engineering firms, but some things you'd be insane to delegate to someone who doesn't have formal engineering education.
- tracker1 11y ago
  I find a lot of things to be interesting work... I enjoy learnign new line of business logic and rules more than writing software. I'd rather think about data storage-flow in application than conceptualizing it all, though I enjoy that too. I spent a little bit of time (less than a year) in upper management even, and hated it. I wouldn't be happy optimizing algorithms to serve ads better, or track financial systems. There's a place for that, sure... but it just isn't interesting to me. There's fun in trying to keep current with new things... Hell, I've been sticking with node.js since inception, and that's been a very wild ride. I like web based applications, despite other people hating them. In the end, I like delivering usability and solutions to the end user. I started out as a designer/artist in a former life (been in software for nearly two decades now). The conventional path was never the right thing for me. That doesn't mean I'm not able to do type of work being done at Google, Netflix and the like... And I've even considered it. Just because I don't have a degree does not mean that I haven't studied, and am not able to do "really technically interesting work." I've spent the better part of twenty years studying, designing and developing software systems, with far more real experience than someone stepping out of college. To think that someone who's spent that much time is always inferior to someone with a formal education is simply ignorant. As to engineering, take a look at where Radar came frome sometime. It wasn't formal educational engineers, it was guys with on the ground experience. There are a lot of truly great acheivments in humanity that didn't come out of a formal education. Okay, going to stop now, I just found the parent post very arrogant and frustrating. Arrogance irritates me more than any other behavioral trait.
- icebraining 11y ago
  The guy hacking together cookie-cutter single server websites calls himself a software developer/engineer just the same as the Ph.D. hacking on compilers or ML algorithms. From what I can tell, none of the lead creators of PHP, Python, Perl, Ruby or JavaScript actually have PhDs. The original author of Turbo Pascal and chief architect of Delphi and now of C#, Anders Hejlsberg, didn't even finish his undergraduate degree. It's not just a matter of similar titles, the paths are really less formalized.
  - nmrm2 11y ago

by geebee 11y ago

msandford 11y ago

> (I'm not sure about actuaries, if you studied math on your own, could you enter the actuarial field? Not sure about this one). Yes, anyone can take the exams, there are a handful. And if you pass them all nobody really cares about your degree. But from what I gather you'd better be pretty sharp to pull it off.

nmrm2 11y ago

> if you studied math on your own, could you enter the actuarial field? Not sure about this one Yes (edit: accidentally said the opposite of what I meant!). What you need to be able to do is pass the exams. BUT -- plenty of people with math degrees fail these exams. It's a hell of a lot harder than learning how to hack together a RoR site. See e.g., various discussions on http://www.actuarialoutpost.com http://www.actuarialoutpost.com You can also e.g., fill a number of supporting roles around actuaries without a college degree and then demonstrate competence by taking exams. > I wonder if maybe software developers are a little more inclined, as a "profession", toward paths that are less formalized. I think the fact that everyone in software has the same job title makes a huge difference wrt medicine and engineering. The guy hacking together cookie-cutter single server websites calls himself a software developer/engineer just the same as the Ph.D. hacking on compilers or ML algorithms. Everyone inside the field knows there's a huge difference between these two jobs, and that becoming the latter is basically requires a degree (perhaps even an advanced one) or really extraordinary dedication while the former probably doesn't even need a degree at all. So when someone says "do I need a degree to become a software developer? / Is a degree the fastest path to becoming a software developer?", it's an ill-defined question. What do you mean by software developer? Do you want a good salary doing whatever in boom times or do you want to do really technically interesting work with job security even in bust times? Conversely, most other fields tend to differentiate between job titles that require lots of skill and jobs that don't. For example, the difference between various levels of non-doctor healthcare workers (the whole range of nurses, and then everything up/down from there) is very institutionalized. Something similar happens in engineering -- plenty of non-engineers do engineer-y things in engineering firms, but some things you'd be insane to delegate to someone who doesn't have formal engineering education.

tracker1 11y ago
I find a lot of things to be interesting work... I enjoy learnign new line of business logic and rules more than writing software. I'd rather think about data storage-flow in application than conceptualizing it all, though I enjoy that too. I spent a little bit of time (less than a year) in upper management even, and hated it. I wouldn't be happy optimizing algorithms to serve ads better, or track financial systems. There's a place for that, sure... but it just isn't interesting to me. There's fun in trying to keep current with new things... Hell, I've been sticking with node.js since inception, and that's been a very wild ride. I like web based applications, despite other people hating them. In the end, I like delivering usability and solutions to the end user. I started out as a designer/artist in a former life (been in software for nearly two decades now). The conventional path was never the right thing for me. That doesn't mean I'm not able to do type of work being done at Google, Netflix and the like... And I've even considered it. Just because I don't have a degree does not mean that I haven't studied, and am not able to do "really technically interesting work." I've spent the better part of twenty years studying, designing and developing software systems, with far more real experience than someone stepping out of college. To think that someone who's spent that much time is always inferior to someone with a formal education is simply ignorant. As to engineering, take a look at where Radar came frome sometime. It wasn't formal educational engineers, it was guys with on the ground experience. There are a lot of truly great acheivments in humanity that didn't come out of a formal education. Okay, going to stop now, I just found the parent post very arrogant and frustrating. Arrogance irritates me more than any other behavioral trait.
icebraining 11y ago
The guy hacking together cookie-cutter single server websites calls himself a software developer/engineer just the same as the Ph.D. hacking on compilers or ML algorithms. From what I can tell, none of the lead creators of PHP, Python, Perl, Ruby or JavaScript actually have PhDs. The original author of Turbo Pascal and chief architect of Delphi and now of C#, Anders Hejlsberg, didn't even finish his undergraduate degree. It's not just a matter of similar titles, the paths are really less formalized.
- nmrm2 11y ago