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So I thought that the article was misleading in that it attempts to link an email metadata program which applied to all email communication, including U.S. pers

So I thought that the article was misleading in that it attempts to link an email metadata program which applied to all email communication, including U.S. persons with two different programs (upstream and PRISM) which only authorize collection of targets that are not U.S. persons and are outside of the U.S., and have a valid foreign intelligence purpose. It's certainly possible that the NSA simply disregards the laws and collects on everybody. However, there isn't any evidence of that here. Kudos on the NYT for winning their lawsuit and getting the documents through FOIA, though.

rl3 11y ago
>It's certainly possible that the NSA simply disregards the laws and collects on everybody. The NSA is almost certainly engaging in full-take domestic content collection on everyone—including US citizens. If I had to guess, they're probably staying within the letter of the law while doing so via a combination of legal maneuvering and secret authorizations. Consider Tim Clemente's on-air remarks, and the fact NSA has been been playing semantics games with the definition of "collection" such as to conflate it with the act of accessing information that's already present in storage.[0] Also consider that Russ Tice has stated multiple times that full-take domestic content collection was occurring as recently as 2013.[1] Moreover, what Snowden leaked was primarily from JWICS, which is arguably a glorified PowerPoint repository for the intelligence community. There are more sensitive networks, and it stands to reason that the lurid details of full-take domestic collection would probably be heavily compartmented, not floating around in clear unambiguous form on something like JWICS. The whole metadata discussion is a bullshit facade. NSA is essentially offering up deprecated programs and their associated policy frameworks for sacrifice on the political altar. This serves to protect their current programs via way of misdirection, providing an illusion of reform. [0] http://blog.rubbingalcoholic.com/post/52913031241/its-not-just-metadata-the-nsa-is-getting http://blog.rubbingalcoholic.com/post/52913031241/its-not-ju... [1] 9:49, 1:13:29 @ http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/wp-content/uploads/BF.0112.Tice_20130617.mp3 http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/wp-content/uploads/BF.0112.T...
- aburan28 11y ago
  The real secrets and "keys to the kingdom" are "Eyes only" compartmentalized deep within ECI/VRK compartments. I sincerely doubt the NSA would ever keep a record of some of the sensitive things they do. The big thing with the Snowden leaks was the NSA did not know if he got evidence of full content collection at first and now that it is apparent he didn't, the discussion regarding the NSA is limited to only "Metadata" collection
mtgx 11y ago
The NSA has already said that: 1) all encrypted data is considered "foreign" and therefore all is collected (as if they couldn't see that metadata for that encrypted content...). So if you use Gmail or Facebook you're a foreigner. 2) if there's a >51% chance (flipping a coin) in their algorithm that the target is a foreigner (based on metadata, presumably) then the data will be collected. 3) EFF and others (I think Ron Wyden, too, who is in the Intelligence Committee) have said that the NSA is doing "backdoor searches" on Americans by interpreting the law as "if you communicate to a foreigner they can collect yours, too" - So if you have foreigner Friends on your Facebook or Twitter and you "like" or talk to them, your data will likely be collected. 4) When asked whether it collects the data on members of Congress, I don't remember the exact reply but it was something along the lines of "probably, since we collect it on everyone". Knowing this (and there are other such answers from them), you have to be very naive to believe the NSA is only collecting the data at most on a small percentage of Americans.

rl3 11y ago

>It's certainly possible that the NSA simply disregards the laws and collects on everybody. The NSA is almost certainly engaging in full-take domestic content collection on everyone—including US citizens. If I had to guess, they're probably staying within the letter of the law while doing so via a combination of legal maneuvering and secret authorizations. Consider Tim Clemente's on-air remarks, and the fact NSA has been been playing semantics games with the definition of "collection" such as to conflate it with the act of accessing information that's already present in storage.[0] Also consider that Russ Tice has stated multiple times that full-take domestic content collection was occurring as recently as 2013.[1] Moreover, what Snowden leaked was primarily from JWICS, which is arguably a glorified PowerPoint repository for the intelligence community. There are more sensitive networks, and it stands to reason that the lurid details of full-take domestic collection would probably be heavily compartmented, not floating around in clear unambiguous form on something like JWICS. The whole metadata discussion is a bullshit facade. NSA is essentially offering up deprecated programs and their associated policy frameworks for sacrifice on the political altar. This serves to protect their current programs via way of misdirection, providing an illusion of reform. [0] http://blog.rubbingalcoholic.com/post/52913031241/its-not-just-metadata-the-nsa-is-getting http://blog.rubbingalcoholic.com/post/52913031241/its-not-ju... [1] 9:49, 1:13:29 @ http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/wp-content/uploads/BF.0112.Tice_20130617.mp3 http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/wp-content/uploads/BF.0112.T...

aburan28 11y ago
The real secrets and "keys to the kingdom" are "Eyes only" compartmentalized deep within ECI/VRK compartments. I sincerely doubt the NSA would ever keep a record of some of the sensitive things they do. The big thing with the Snowden leaks was the NSA did not know if he got evidence of full content collection at first and now that it is apparent he didn't, the discussion regarding the NSA is limited to only "Metadata" collection

mtgx 11y ago

The NSA has already said that: 1) all encrypted data is considered "foreign" and therefore all is collected (as if they couldn't see that metadata for that encrypted content...). So if you use Gmail or Facebook you're a foreigner. 2) if there's a >51% chance (flipping a coin) in their algorithm that the target is a foreigner (based on metadata, presumably) then the data will be collected. 3) EFF and others (I think Ron Wyden, too, who is in the Intelligence Committee) have said that the NSA is doing "backdoor searches" on Americans by interpreting the law as "if you communicate to a foreigner they can collect yours, too" - So if you have foreigner Friends on your Facebook or Twitter and you "like" or talk to them, your data will likely be collected. 4) When asked whether it collects the data on members of Congress, I don't remember the exact reply but it was something along the lines of "probably, since we collect it on everyone". Knowing this (and there are other such answers from them), you have to be very naive to believe the NSA is only collecting the data at most on a small percentage of Americans.