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One frustrating thing that the author gets wrong is labelling Iran the "Gray Daesh." Iran has geopolitical conflict with the West, but it's a false equivalent
by she_moves_on 11y ago
One frustrating thing that the author gets wrong is labelling Iran the "Gray Daesh."
Iran has geopolitical conflict with the West, but it's a false equivalent of Saudi Arabia. Iran is a theocracy trying to control a population that growingly wants to be secular. Women in Iran go to university at higher rates than men, can drive, hold office, and vote. Life in Iran for a women is not perfect but is heaven compared to Saudi Arabia.
Iranian sponsored militias like hezbollah are in geopolitical conflicts as Iran wants more regional influence. They want regional islam. They are not trying to establish a global Shiite islamic state.
Like most things it comes down to money and power. Saudi plays ball with America economic hegemony and Iran does not. So rather than allying with the more moderate/educated nation with huge potential to be progressive, we ally with the one that is best for big business and willing to cede military control of the region to us.
The Iranian theocracy is fucked, don't get me wrong. But we really have our priorities in a mess.
- amalag 11y agoAmazing how one theocracy, Saudi Arabia, is ok, but the other theocracy, Iran, is bad.
- dragontamer 11y agoNot really. The US shot a missile at Iranian Airliner (killing all civilians on board) and coup'd Iran's Democracy in the 1960s. Iran held US personnel as hostages for a year and imprisons our visitors. They are also sworn enemies to US Allies like Israel. Iran is "bad" because they are our enemy. And they see the US as "bad" because we've been their enemy in the past. There is absolutely nothing strange about the hate-filled relationship between Iran and the US. It is simple politics and history.
- pstuart 11y ago> It is simple politics and history American was at war with Japan and Germany not to long before as well. Now we are best buddies. Things can change if the money's right.
- ptaipale 11y agoThere was a fairly complete turnaround in the politics of both Germany and Japan after they lost the Second World War, in case you didn't notice. The "money's right" came as a consequence of that.
- jacquesm 11y agoNothing rules out Iran having such a complete turnaround. Plenty of people there remember the days of the Shah, they also remember the days of the SAVAK. Neither of those solutions was 'all good' so at some point the people will say 'enough'. It can take a while.
- ptaipale 11y ago> Nothing rules out Iran having such a complete turnaround. The purpose of the Guardian Council [0] is precisely to prevent such a turnaround. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Council
- jacquesm 11y agoThat sort of thing will be their downfall, it won't prevent much of anything other than maybe temporary.
- hackuser 11y agoIran was a U.S. ally under the Shahs, whose reign lasted from the coup we supported or engineered (against their mostly democratic government) in 1953 until the revolution in 1979. Many/most 9/11 perpetrators, including Osama Bin Laden, came from Saudi Arabia; there is plenty of reason for the U.S. to hate them. All countries (or other groups) can find reasons to hate or love each other. Look at France and Germany, close allies now but plenty of opportunity for hate. All it takes is an effective political leader to manipulate the public in whatever way suits them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOR38552MJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOR38552MJA
- mratzloff 11y agoIran was a U.S. ally under the Shahs, whose reign lasted from the coup we supported or engineered (against their mostly democratic governemnt) in 1953 until the revolution in 1979. The beginning of Mohammad Reza's reign was in 1941 and had nothing to do with the US. The coup (by both the US and UK) was about reversing the nationalization of Iran's oil industry, not about installing Mohammad Reza as king. Britain and the Soviet Union did that in WWII.
- hackuser 11y agoWhatever the mechanics the US and UK effectively removed Prime Minister Mosaddegh from power and gave it to, and supported the Shah (Reza). Is that not correct?
- abalashov 11y agoYes, it is correct. Although, as with any CIA destabilisation and coup operation, a certain layer of plausible deniability was a key strategic consideration.
- TheOsiris 11y agoI think the major difference is that Iran is openly and directly funding/helping Hizbollah. Whereas Saudi Arabia is more of funder of extremist beliefs but no direct funding of terrorist orgs
- lambdasquirrel 11y agoSingapore is one republic, and Sweden is another. They could hardly be more different. Not all {governments-of-one-type} are the same.
- arethuza 11y agoSweden is constitutional monarchy and a parliamentary democracy - more like the UK than Singapore.
- maelito 11y agoI believe the colors for the author denote only the degree of geopolitical conflict
- lotux 11y agoAuthor got paid to paint Saudi's black ( they are certainly blackish in terms of things that they do [I am not racist] with US approval) and Iran as Gray (not very true, Iran is way more whiter than US, EU and KSA), such a moron. at the end every country is a different shade of Gray.
- jacquesm 11y ago> Iran is way more whiter than US, EU and KSA What is your reasoning behind this claim?
- DominikR 11y agoYes I agree, the Iranians are on a different level regarding education, academia and culture. They will eventually transform into a relatively free society if we don't interfere.
- lotux 11y agoWe don't need your freedom, we are free, you are slave of your credit card company and bank, mind your own business. -- An Iranian
- DominikR 11y agoI didn't say that you will want the same freedom or culture that we have. I just comment on the fact that there is obviously a conflict between the well educated masses in Iran and the strict religious laws. Can't just imagine your society will still be cutting of hands of thieves and hanging homosexuals publicly in 50 years. Also I would appreciate it if you wouldn't insult me. -- A non-nationalist guy
- jacquesm 11y agoThat's an interesting point you raise there. People in Western societies see themselves as 'at the pinnacle of civilization' but there is plenty that other countries have, even if their governments are not arrived at through the same mechanisms that we have and by our yardstick are 'less free' whereas we are by their yardstick 'less free'. As for being a slave to credit card companies and banks: that's optional where I live.
- watty 11y agoI think most westerners think of freedom as the ability to do what you want when you want. This means freedom of speech, freedom to travel, freedom of censorship, freedom of dress codes. I'm not claiming other nations are completely free, they're not. But Iran is free? Not even close.
- lotux 11y agoCome visit Iran and then we can talk who has freedom and who don't. Is easy and not accurate if you judge things that you never saw in your life.
- 0xFFC 11y agoAs Iranian (I am commenting from Tehran) I completely approve your point of view.I even explained in long comment in this post(you can find it in bottom).Iranian regime nightmare is liberal people( because they are the most effective opposition to current regime, all of other opposition's dismantled by regime very easily they don't even exist in society). you know why? Because they are only threat to nature of this unbeatable regime(which have money manpower and religion).but west politicians keep ignoring this fact.Iran society is way ahead of its regime.Maybe far better than turkey in term of progressiveness And regime knows perfectly. Not Isis.not USA.not Israel.non of them is serious threat for them in long term.but a huge young population with secular believes is THE most threat for regime nature.people who use internet and spend time behind porn sites and don't give fuck about Islam is the most threat (and lose) for Iran regime. You want change middle east . change their fucking -stupid- culture with internet, with porn.
- msoad 11y agoWell, porn usually doesn't help much. How about proper education and teaching people to respect women and minorities?
- 0xFFC 11y agoOf course , I am using porn as notion, because it is such red line in Iran's(or broadly in Islamic) culture. It is the most - and first - effective attack to the stupid Islamic culture.Of course science is the best alternative. I just want show people the hardware -military,sanction, etc- is not answer . the best answer is software -culture,education,etc-.
- msoad 11y agoWestern countries are not interested in investing in Middle Eastern countries to achieve long term goals.
- lotux 11y agoWe all get free or almost free or cheap, decent education in Iran, how about you? how much university debt do you have?
- xlm1717 11y agoThe main difference is that the government in power currently in Iran deposed the government that the US set up and wanted to have as an ally. If the Shah had remained in power in Iran, the US would likely be as close with Iran as they are with Saudi Arabia.
- zeveb 11y ago> the government in power currently in Iran deposed the government that the US set up The U.S. did not 'set up' the Shah; he was the legitimate ruler of Persia. Nor did the U.S. overthrow a 'democratically-elected leader'; the Shah's legitimate government successfully defeated a coup attempt by his prime minister Mossadegh, who died peacefully under house arrest years later.
- lotux 11y agooh my god, you should get hired by FoxNews
- dang 11y agoYou've been posting comments that break the Hacker News guidelines. We ban accounts that do that, so please don't do that. Temper runs high and patience is thin when it comes to questions like this, so it's understandable when people boil over—but it also breaks the rules of this site, which are there for good reason. Please don't post comments unless they are civil and substantive. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
- jacquesm 11y agoIs this sarcasm? I'm asking because I don't see any markers indicating that it is and I get this wrong every 3rd comment or so. If it isn't sarcasm you are somewhat mis-informed. If it is sarcasm then please ignore this comment. As for the Shah, he was very much there with the support of the oil industry, but that doesn't make him all bad. He wanted to make Persia a modern state and in doing so upset the Mullahs which culminated in the return of banished Ayatollah Khomeini (who resided in Paris, of all places during his exile), and how that ended we probably all already know.
- Cyph0n 11y agoAh yes, but you fail to mention Iran's extremely aggressive agenda in the region. The Ahwazi Arabs (Sunni, coincidentally) are stripped of nearly all basic human rights, enclosed in their own state essentially within Iran's borders [1]. Even the Shia in Saudi Arabia are treated better than how Iran handles the Ahwaz region. Further, Iran loves fighting wars by proxy for some reason. Hezbollah and the Revolutionary Guard are roaming around Syria like they own it. Hezbollah's hold on Lebanese politics is undeniable. And of course, the funding of Houthis in Yemen who hilariously failed to execute an easy coup, the result of which started a full-blown war. The region is in turmoil, and both sides are at fault. I personally believe that the US is entirely aware of the troubled sectarian relations in the region, and is using that as a way to get cheap oil and sell arms, which is a valid strategy. This has to stop. The only lasting solution is dialogue. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahwazi_Arabs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahwazi_Arabs
- intopieces 11y agoI don't presume that anyone on this board would make such a mistake, but thank you for sublty reminding us that Iranians are not Arabs. Such obfuscations make it difficult for us to parse the active conflicts in the region.
- rrggrr 11y agoTehran is quite busy dealing with threats on all sides, whilst still trying to pursue its support of Hezbollah in Lebannon. I think lessons learned in Iraq changed the calculus for Tehran and Washington. Keeping in mind there are at least 18m Sunni muslims in Iran vulnerable to ISIS message and good number of disaffected Shia, the focus may be on stability now.
- anon1mous 11y agoOh, just maybe it has something to do with the extremely pacifist agenda of the US and Saudi Arabia in the region ...
- DominikR 11y ago> Hezbollah and the Revolutionary Guard are roaming around Syria like they own it. So you would rather have ISIS expanding in Syria? That's what the Iranians are fighting there. Furthermore they were invited by the legitimate and UN recognized Syrian government to help fighting the Sunni extremists.
- Pxtl 11y agoI hope that, between the nuclear treaty and Daesh providing a common foe, we can start making more political inroads between western powers and Iran... maybe even Lebanon, too (the Beirut bombings are fresh in memory). The hard part will, of course, be Israel's influence on western politics, since the situation is worsening there with the recent spate of stabbings and the new walls going up to protect settlements in the west bank. With Iran and Lebanon's ties to Hezbollah, Israel will (quite reasonably, all things considered) react badly to inroads made between these countries and Israel's allies.
- Pxtl 11y agoI hope that, between the nuclear treaty and Daesh providing a common foe, we can start making more political inroads between western powers and Iran... maybe even Lebanon, too (the Beirut bombings are fresh in memory). The hard part will, of course, be Israel's influence on western politics, since the situation is worsening there with the recent spate of stabbings and the new walls going up to protect settlements in the west bank.
- samstave 11y agoNitpick: they are not "growingly" wanting ... They are fucking oppressed!! Source: four generations in the state department. With a majority of my father's familiar peers living in Tehran in the late 60s, fluent in Farsi... Iranians are amazing people. Fuck that, people are amazing people... Some People are horrid humans. I have no mercy for said horrid humans... What people lack is a true measure of what makes a sound or terrible human in an objective way...
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- aws_ls 11y ago> Women in Iran go to university at higher rates than men, can drive, hold office, and vote. Life in Iran for a women is not perfect but is heaven compared to Saudi Arabia I have been following the politics/culture of the region for a while. I totally agree. Two examples of women, of Iranian origin, being in the news in the recent past for the best reasons. Maryam Mirzakhani[1], who won the fields medal in Math last year. Remember reading an article, where she spoke about the Math culture at her home and College in Iran. Another one is this US Entrepneur Anousheh Ansari[2], who also went to the ISS, and identifies herself as a dual national. I would love to know of any examples of women in Arab (or nearby countries) having made similar achievement. Sadly, I suspect, the culture does not allow it. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Mirzakhani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Mirzakhani [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anousheh_Ansari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anousheh_Ansari