5 ms·
IMO, there exist good arguments against surveillance. But why are supposedly rational geeks so irrationally prone to putting forward very bad arguments against
by etangent 11y ago
IMO, there exist good arguments against surveillance. But why are supposedly rational geeks so irrationally prone to putting forward very bad arguments against it? See almost every reply in this thread to prove my point, but I will list a few:
1) If one took basic statistics, one would deem the proposition that "X is useless because [a target of X] has just slipped through" as outrageously wrong and a prime example of both selection bias and reliance on anecdotal evidence, yet somehow in the context of surveillance, this argument is taken at face value. You see otherwise smart people posting and retweeting this argument as if they thought it a valid one.
2) In almost any other context, a rational thing to do is to evaluate both sides and, if one seems beneficial but dangerous, propose laws to regulate it (aka: don't use surveillance for blackmailing political candidates since it contradicts democratic principles). Yet in the context of surveillance, a geek will talk in completely black-and-white terms, and not even consider proposing laws to regulate its impact. For an extended example, a common argument against surveillance is that places the entity wielding it "outside of law". Yet democracies have developed well-established methods for dealing with entities in power that try to place themselves outside of law. That is the reason why we have a president with a fixed term rather than a king, for example.
3) If surveillance can be used for blackmailing, then obviously it has to work quite well in the first place (be comprehensive, with ability to target specific individuals). Yet the same geek who argues that surveillance is dangerous because it can be used for blackmailing will also try argue, often in the same paragraph, that surveillance doesn't work, is not effective, or is very easily circumventable. To any impartial outside observer, the argument that "X is not effective! But X is dangerous because it is effective!" would seem like a contradiction, no?
4) Then there is the tired/insensitive argument that "more people die from furniture than from terrorism". First, this is probably only true in the West, and not in places like Nigeria or MENA (this is a good chart http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/2015/11/blogs/graphic-detail/20151121_woc539.png http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecac...). Second, almost all animals (and yes, humans are primates/animals) pay a lot more attention to predators and to acts of violence between each other than to random accidents, and there is an evolutionary reason for that (which specifically is left as an exercise to the reader). I would also argue that, since this behavior is so incredibly prevalent among animals of all kinds, it's almost definitely not an example of a "maladaptive" cognitive bias. Finally, even if it were maladaptive, one can't just simply discount it (an entire country experiencing a fascist freakout against a minority group is not a good thing IMO, whether a result of a cognitive bias or not).
5) For almost every other technology, geeks will argue (often obnoxiously/pedantically) that it can be both good and bad, depending on how it is wielded (see nuclear power). But surveillance is also a technology, yet you almost never see a geek saying "surveillance can be either good or bad" -- no, to a geek, surveillance is bad, period. It's like surveillance is this one thing that technology-loving geeks can feel justified to act luddite about.
Why is that?
- ve55 11y ago1) This is a good point, but there's very little evidence in favor that /any/ legitimate terror attacks are stopped by most mass survellience. In other words, we have no data points in favor of it, and every time an event like this happens, it's an additional data point against it. 2) >if one seems beneficial but dangerous, propose laws to regulate it Because there's no reason at this point for us to believe that the entities in power will adhere to those laws, as they haven't in the past. Keep in mind that without Snowden et al there would be almost no one arguing against mass survellience compared to what there is today. 3) The argument isn't that survellience doesn't collect massive amounts of information on everyone. We know it does that, and everyone should agree. The argument is that despite all of this information, it does not help to protect us in any notable way. In other words, mass survellience is effect at collecting absurd amounts of data on everyone, but it is not effective as a tool to protect us and stop legitimate terrorist threats.
- etangent 11y ago1) If you were good at detecting terror attacks, wouldn't you want to keep it secret from terrorists about how you actually do it? This is such an obvious point (a direct counterpart to Dr. Strangelove's "the whole point of a doomsday machine is lost if you keep it a secret"), yet so many of those who argue against surveillance don't even consider it, thereby revealing that their primary concern is not even remotely close to actually solving the problem of terrorist attacks. Now, someone who completely doesn't care about whether terrorist attacks happen or not -- is that a rational party to have discussion with? 2) Don't democracies have well-established principles on how to deal with entities in power that try to place themselves outside of law -- without actually preventing those entities from wielding any power whatsoever? Wasn't that the entire point of having a president with a fixed term rather than a king?
- mindcrime 11y agoNow, someone who completely doesn't care about whether terrorist attacks happen or not -- is that a rational party to have discussion with? I doubt there is anybody who truly "doesn't care if terrorist attacks happen". But there are people (like myself) who can look at the numbers, realize that you are MANY times more likely to die by slipping and falling in your own bathroom, being in a car crash, drowning in your own pool, or being beaten to death by a cop, than you are to die in a terrorist attack. And after looking at that, I can say that I don't accept a trade-off that involves any loss of freedom, or increase in government scope/power, in order to reduce what is already a minuscule risk. Don't democracies have well-established principles on how to deal with entities in power that try to place themselves outside of law -- without actually preventing those entities from wielding any power whatsoever? Wasn't that the entire point of having a president with a fixed term rather than a king? Yes, and I will argue that it was the point, or at least part of the point, of the Second Amendment. (Yeah, I know this point isn't without controversy).