4 ms·

They Are Us

23 points by muddyrivers 11y ago

amalag 11y ago
So if we want to help persecuted refugees like the Jews were being persecuted in WWII then it sounds like we should give the highest priority to Christians and Yezidis who are targeted by ISIL, killed as infidels and sold into slavery.
- kjdal2001 11y ago
  The vast majority of ISIS's victims are Muslim. Muslims that don't recognize their Caliphate are infidels (according to them).
  - amalag 11y ago
    The vast majority is ISIS's victims are Muslim because the vast majority of population is Muslim. The vast majority of victims of Nazi crimes were not Jewish. What is your point? Christians and Yezidis are killed or slaved outright. Maybe they are asked to convert. No need to ask them if they will keep their beard or wear a hijab. Go do some research about how Christian and Yezidi populations are being destroyed and which communities the slaves are from.
    - kjdal2001 11y ago
      ISIS does not ask people to wear a hijab or grow a beard. They execute people who do not comply. The fact that Syrian Muslim refuges have the ability to avoid execution by joining ISIS is no excuse for discriminating against those who do not. Giving Syrian Christians favorable status is tantamount to stating that ISIS murdering Christians (who do not accept their authority) is genocidal while ISIS murdering Muslims who do not join them is some less severe crime. It also implicitly supports joining ISIS as an acceptable mode of survival for Muslims.
      - amalag 11y ago
        Christians and Yezidis are being targeted and it is being acknowledged as genocide. So I say give priority to victims of genocide. Other refugees are not in such dire circumstances.
kcole16 11y ago
This article makes a great point regarding ISIS aim to turn western nations against the refugees. I can't even fathom how it feels to be forced from your home, then be greeted with hostility just about everywhere. It's not hard to imagine developing the sense of hatred that leads to irrational decisions (like joining ISIS), especially in the younger refugees. I have no idea what the solution is, but I think it's clear banning refugees isn't it. I understand the fear, and I'm as scared as anyone about the potential for new attacks. Still, we need to unite everyone against ISIS, not drive new recruits towards them.
andrewclunn 11y ago
The only reason there are so many refugees is because we stuck our noses into a Syrian civil war and effectively created the space for ISIS to exist. And we're still bombing Syria even now. Republicans: "Why are we accepting these refugees from ISIS controlled regions when the security risk of Islamic terrorism is so clear?" Democrats: "Compassion above bigotry. These people people are just trying to escape the civil war and continuous fighting a bombings." Sane people: "So then why the fuck are we bombing Syria?" One more issue where only by giving more (to strangers because you're guilted or intimidated into it) can the government fix the problem that it created. Keep them out of our country, and get the hell out of theirs.
- amalag 11y ago
  At least there is one congressperson talking some sense and saying this: "CIA Must Stop Illegal, Counterproductive War to Overthrow Assad" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Q8X60KQ9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Q8X60KQ9Q
  - ende 11y ago
    With a civilian body count far higher than ISIS's, the Assad regime is surely the largest producer of terrorists. I wonder if put to a vote on whether the US should withdraw its support of the rebels, how would most Syrians vote?
andyl 11y ago
Post WW2 refugees didn't have elements that were beheading, torturing, killing and enslaving. Huge difference.
- jeremysmyth 11y ago
  Are you seriously suggesting that refugees engage in these activities? Or are you redefining "refugees" to include other people that are somehow in the same ethnic or demographic class? For example, after WWII, German people were probably the largest demographic class of refugees [1], yet German people were probably also the cause of the greatest amount of deaths by torturing, killing, and enslaving (although they might come second to the Russians by some measurements; being only second worst does not invalidate my current point). If you argue that it wasn't the refugees themselves doing the bad things, then you must also take that argument to the modern-day refugees that you use to compare to those WWII refugees. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%9350) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German...
  - andyl 11y ago
    Absolutely serious that elements of the refugee population belong to groups that engage in torture/beheading/rape/enslavement. We have no idea how to tell the good from the bad. Just takes a small number of radicals to cause huge damage and disruption. Not worth the risk.
    - jeremysmyth 11y ago
      elements of the refugee population belong to groups... This is categorically different to your grandparent statement implying by negation that "refugees[...]have elements that were beheading, torturing, killing and enslaving". Group T (terrorists) might intersect with group R (refugees) (suggested by "elements of [R] belong to groups [T]), but there is no evidence of this and even if there were it would likely point to a quantity that is well below the margin of error in sampling. This is an entirely different logical statement to "elements of [R] do the evil things of group [T]". You must be clear when you make scaremongering statements that suggest refugees engage in terrorist activities, because your first statement was clearly wrong yet emotive and therefore easily spread. This doubles down with your second statement, particularly when you have zero evidence to support your restated claim.
rtl49 11y ago
This war is a tragedy of extraordinary proportions. Perhaps more than 300,000 have been killed and nearly 8 million displaced. It's yet another sobering reminder that all wars are disasters, and should only be undertaken as a matter of absolute necessity. What makes things worse is that it does not seem to serve the interest of any Western nation to accept the refugees this crisis has produced. If any one nation receives a large number of the displaced, it faces the possibility of a rapid demographic change which may alter the ideological composition of the population, or create pockets of unrest. France, with its large, mostly unassimilated Muslim population that has been blamed for destructive riots, is considered a cautionary tale on the dangers of "too much tolerance." What can one do? It doesn't seem Syria will be hospitable for a long time. Things don't look bright for these very unfortunate people.

23 points by muddyrivers 11y ago

So if we want to help persecuted refugees like the Jews were being persecuted in WWII then it sounds like we should give the highest priority to Christians and Yezidis who are targeted by ISIL, killed as infidels and sold into slavery.

kjdal2001 11y ago
The vast majority of ISIS's victims are Muslim. Muslims that don't recognize their Caliphate are infidels (according to them).
- amalag 11y ago
  The vast majority is ISIS's victims are Muslim because the vast majority of population is Muslim. The vast majority of victims of Nazi crimes were not Jewish. What is your point? Christians and Yezidis are killed or slaved outright. Maybe they are asked to convert. No need to ask them if they will keep their beard or wear a hijab. Go do some research about how Christian and Yezidi populations are being destroyed and which communities the slaves are from.
  - kjdal2001 11y ago
    ISIS does not ask people to wear a hijab or grow a beard. They execute people who do not comply. The fact that Syrian Muslim refuges have the ability to avoid execution by joining ISIS is no excuse for discriminating against those who do not. Giving Syrian Christians favorable status is tantamount to stating that ISIS murdering Christians (who do not accept their authority) is genocidal while ISIS murdering Muslims who do not join them is some less severe crime. It also implicitly supports joining ISIS as an acceptable mode of survival for Muslims.
    - amalag 11y ago
      Christians and Yezidis are being targeted and it is being acknowledged as genocide. So I say give priority to victims of genocide. Other refugees are not in such dire circumstances.

kcole16 11y ago

This article makes a great point regarding ISIS aim to turn western nations against the refugees. I can't even fathom how it feels to be forced from your home, then be greeted with hostility just about everywhere. It's not hard to imagine developing the sense of hatred that leads to irrational decisions (like joining ISIS), especially in the younger refugees. I have no idea what the solution is, but I think it's clear banning refugees isn't it. I understand the fear, and I'm as scared as anyone about the potential for new attacks. Still, we need to unite everyone against ISIS, not drive new recruits towards them.

andrewclunn 11y ago

The only reason there are so many refugees is because we stuck our noses into a Syrian civil war and effectively created the space for ISIS to exist. And we're still bombing Syria even now. Republicans: "Why are we accepting these refugees from ISIS controlled regions when the security risk of Islamic terrorism is so clear?" Democrats: "Compassion above bigotry. These people people are just trying to escape the civil war and continuous fighting a bombings." Sane people: "So then why the fuck are we bombing Syria?" One more issue where only by giving more (to strangers because you're guilted or intimidated into it) can the government fix the problem that it created. Keep them out of our country, and get the hell out of theirs.

amalag 11y ago
At least there is one congressperson talking some sense and saying this: "CIA Must Stop Illegal, Counterproductive War to Overthrow Assad" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Q8X60KQ9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Q8X60KQ9Q
- ende 11y ago
  With a civilian body count far higher than ISIS's, the Assad regime is surely the largest producer of terrorists. I wonder if put to a vote on whether the US should withdraw its support of the rebels, how would most Syrians vote?

andyl 11y ago

Post WW2 refugees didn't have elements that were beheading, torturing, killing and enslaving. Huge difference.

jeremysmyth 11y ago
Are you seriously suggesting that refugees engage in these activities? Or are you redefining "refugees" to include other people that are somehow in the same ethnic or demographic class? For example, after WWII, German people were probably the largest demographic class of refugees [1], yet German people were probably also the cause of the greatest amount of deaths by torturing, killing, and enslaving (although they might come second to the Russians by some measurements; being only second worst does not invalidate my current point). If you argue that it wasn't the refugees themselves doing the bad things, then you must also take that argument to the modern-day refugees that you use to compare to those WWII refugees. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%9350) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German...
- andyl 11y ago
  Absolutely serious that elements of the refugee population belong to groups that engage in torture/beheading/rape/enslavement. We have no idea how to tell the good from the bad. Just takes a small number of radicals to cause huge damage and disruption. Not worth the risk.
  - jeremysmyth 11y ago
    elements of the refugee population belong to groups... This is categorically different to your grandparent statement implying by negation that "refugees[...]have elements that were beheading, torturing, killing and enslaving". Group T (terrorists) might intersect with group R (refugees) (suggested by "elements of [R] belong to groups [T]), but there is no evidence of this and even if there were it would likely point to a quantity that is well below the margin of error in sampling. This is an entirely different logical statement to "elements of [R] do the evil things of group [T]". You must be clear when you make scaremongering statements that suggest refugees engage in terrorist activities, because your first statement was clearly wrong yet emotive and therefore easily spread. This doubles down with your second statement, particularly when you have zero evidence to support your restated claim.

rtl49 11y ago

This war is a tragedy of extraordinary proportions. Perhaps more than 300,000 have been killed and nearly 8 million displaced. It's yet another sobering reminder that all wars are disasters, and should only be undertaken as a matter of absolute necessity. What makes things worse is that it does not seem to serve the interest of any Western nation to accept the refugees this crisis has produced. If any one nation receives a large number of the displaced, it faces the possibility of a rapid demographic change which may alter the ideological composition of the population, or create pockets of unrest. France, with its large, mostly unassimilated Muslim population that has been blamed for destructive riots, is considered a cautionary tale on the dangers of "too much tolerance." What can one do? It doesn't seem Syria will be hospitable for a long time. Things don't look bright for these very unfortunate people.