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Are you saying you are unaware of any program that can post text to a web server that is "small"? If all you are aware of is large software, then your statemen

Are you saying you are unaware of any program that can post text to a web server that is "small"? If all you are aware of is large software, then your statement that "All software is large" makes more sense. "All software is not as large as Microsoft's software." Would you agree with that?

mejari 11y ago
I'm also interested in the answer to their question instead of these diversions.
- loginusername 11y ago
  And why are you interested? A comment in response to a NYT "article" (=PR piece) on Microsoft's approach to "security" where the comment points out that Windows is an extremely large program with layers upon layers of historical cruft and that it remains closed source. Additionally I suggested Windows is the easiest target for finding security flaws. It is a very large attack surface. Is this really controversial? For better or worse, I am responding to these comments no matter how nonsensical they are. The best comments have actually come from Microsoft employees, past or present.
  - wvenable 11y ago
    Windows is actually very modular; even the kernel is designed in a micro-kernel style even though it all runs in ring 0. There are versions of Windows with no GUI. Every other comparable operating system is in the same order of magnitude in the size of the code. The attack surface for any large OS is going to be about the same.
    - loginusername 11y ago
      "There are versions of Windows with no GUI." Do they run in VGA textmode? I have used a program called "window" and today I use tmux but neither of those come from Microsoft. How do I obtain one of these versions of Microsoft Windows that runs in VGA textmode? "The attack surface for any large OS..." Well yes, because they are all large. But what if the OS is small? Let me guess, now you are going to tell me that all OS, e.g., kernel plus userland, are the same size?
      - wvenable 11y ago
        Of course, not all OS kernel plus userland are the same size. However, we aren't talking about "smaller" we are talking about "small". Small being something you can write and/or fully understand. If you wrote your kernel and userland or at least understand every part of it then, congratulations, you made your point. But if you don't, your OS/userland is smaller but it isn't small. And probably most developers could write an OS/userland by themselves given enough time but it would probably be a long time before it's practically useful or secure.
        loginusername 11y ago
        Alright, I think we have reached agreement. Software that is "smaller" than Microsoft Windows. It exists. I prefer such "smaller" software and use it every day. For me, it is "practically useful". I regularly see others stating it is useful for them, too. Have no idea what "secure" means in the abstract, but maybe smaller software and the way it is used can be "more secure" (or less secure) than Windows. "Fully understand" is a very high watermark to reach with any system. But given the choice between a larger system that is opaque and one that is smaller and open source I believe I can (partially) understand the smaller one better.
        wvenable 11y ago
        My point is all software is large; even Linux combined with it's user-land is large. Larger than Windows was a while back. What you prefer is pretty immaterial to the discussion; you choice is perfectly valid even though I would personally find it wasteful.
        loginusername 11y ago
        I do not use Linux on a day to day basis as I said multiple times in these threads, nor do I consider the popular Linux distributions as a good example of small(er) software. They keep getting larger. Some have said the larger Linux distributions aim to be a "replacement" for Windows. I would tend to agree. I have little interest in Windows nor the "desktop" metaphor. But, at least with an open source kernel such as Linux (aside from the binary blobs), unlike closed source Microsoft Windows kernel, a user can reduce the size. One can also use an initrd with her own small(er) programs or a mutli-call binary instead of a GNU userland put together by a third party organization. I have never compiled my own reduced size Windows kernel or any other part of Windows given that it is a _closed source kernel_. The idea that I am even having to state seems ridiculous. Most everyone reading this forum knows this. This whole "discussion" is surreal. Funny that you use the word "wasteful". That is exactly how I view large(r) software. It wastes valuable resources that, on my systems, are in limited and often short supply. The reason I mentioned what I prefer was to disclose bias. Certainly everyone has one. The reason I mentioned what I use was only to provide example, to illustrate that such small(er) software exists. Again, the idea I even have to state this, to someone on this forum, seems surreal. There are alternatives to Windows and to Linux distributions, at least in my case. I know for fact I am not the only one using small(er) software, but I am not comfortable speaking for others. What software they choose to use is their business, not mine.
wvenable 11y ago
Why didn't you just answer the question? Which small software are did you use to post your comment? Why be so vague?
- loginusername 11y ago
  What difference does it make what small software program I am using? You do not believe such a program exists? Or maybe you want to critique the program? That would be typical commenter behavior, but it is totally irrelevant to the discussion. The topic is Microsoft software and the relationship between code size and probability of security flaws.
  - wvenable 11y ago
    > What difference does it make what small software program I am using? You brought it up and now you don't want to say, I find that odd. It's hard to have a conversation if you're going to be so.. cryptic. > Or maybe you want to critique the program? Maybe I want a significant example of a "small program". At this point, neither terms have been well defined. You called the program used to make your comment "small" so tell me what it is. > The topic is Microsoft software and the relationship between code size and probability of security flaws. The greater the code size the greater the probability of bugs. And security flaws can be exploited utilizing the combined flaws across different independent programs or included libraries. My point is the only programs so small that security issues are a non-issue are either not interesting or combined with other programs to do something useful.
    - loginusername 11y ago
      "The greater the code size the greater the probability of bugs." Right. I think we are done here. Microsoft Windows is larger than any OS I know of, and only keeps growing. To answer your question, I am using a text only browser that's based on the links project, with my own minor modifications. I still have no idea why you and the other commenter are asking. It seems quite clear neither of you have any legitimate interest in such programs. Otherwise you would not be challenging my statement of such a simple fact as the quoted sentence above, as it applies to Microsoft. I strongly disagree that "small" programs are not useful. As I have previously stated, I use them every day. I use programs such as sed and netcat to interact with the www even more than I use a browser.

mejari 11y ago

I'm also interested in the answer to their question instead of these diversions.

loginusername 11y ago
And why are you interested? A comment in response to a NYT "article" (=PR piece) on Microsoft's approach to "security" where the comment points out that Windows is an extremely large program with layers upon layers of historical cruft and that it remains closed source. Additionally I suggested Windows is the easiest target for finding security flaws. It is a very large attack surface. Is this really controversial? For better or worse, I am responding to these comments no matter how nonsensical they are. The best comments have actually come from Microsoft employees, past or present.
- wvenable 11y ago
  Windows is actually very modular; even the kernel is designed in a micro-kernel style even though it all runs in ring 0. There are versions of Windows with no GUI. Every other comparable operating system is in the same order of magnitude in the size of the code. The attack surface for any large OS is going to be about the same.
  - loginusername 11y ago
    "There are versions of Windows with no GUI." Do they run in VGA textmode? I have used a program called "window" and today I use tmux but neither of those come from Microsoft. How do I obtain one of these versions of Microsoft Windows that runs in VGA textmode? "The attack surface for any large OS..." Well yes, because they are all large. But what if the OS is small? Let me guess, now you are going to tell me that all OS, e.g., kernel plus userland, are the same size?
    - wvenable 11y ago
      Of course, not all OS kernel plus userland are the same size. However, we aren't talking about "smaller" we are talking about "small". Small being something you can write and/or fully understand. If you wrote your kernel and userland or at least understand every part of it then, congratulations, you made your point. But if you don't, your OS/userland is smaller but it isn't small. And probably most developers could write an OS/userland by themselves given enough time but it would probably be a long time before it's practically useful or secure.
      - loginusername 11y ago
        Alright, I think we have reached agreement. Software that is "smaller" than Microsoft Windows. It exists. I prefer such "smaller" software and use it every day. For me, it is "practically useful". I regularly see others stating it is useful for them, too. Have no idea what "secure" means in the abstract, but maybe smaller software and the way it is used can be "more secure" (or less secure) than Windows. "Fully understand" is a very high watermark to reach with any system. But given the choice between a larger system that is opaque and one that is smaller and open source I believe I can (partially) understand the smaller one better.
        wvenable 11y ago
        My point is all software is large; even Linux combined with it's user-land is large. Larger than Windows was a while back. What you prefer is pretty immaterial to the discussion; you choice is perfectly valid even though I would personally find it wasteful.
        loginusername 11y ago
        I do not use Linux on a day to day basis as I said multiple times in these threads, nor do I consider the popular Linux distributions as a good example of small(er) software. They keep getting larger. Some have said the larger Linux distributions aim to be a "replacement" for Windows. I would tend to agree. I have little interest in Windows nor the "desktop" metaphor. But, at least with an open source kernel such as Linux (aside from the binary blobs), unlike closed source Microsoft Windows kernel, a user can reduce the size. One can also use an initrd with her own small(er) programs or a mutli-call binary instead of a GNU userland put together by a third party organization. I have never compiled my own reduced size Windows kernel or any other part of Windows given that it is a _closed source kernel_. The idea that I am even having to state seems ridiculous. Most everyone reading this forum knows this. This whole "discussion" is surreal. Funny that you use the word "wasteful". That is exactly how I view large(r) software. It wastes valuable resources that, on my systems, are in limited and often short supply. The reason I mentioned what I prefer was to disclose bias. Certainly everyone has one. The reason I mentioned what I use was only to provide example, to illustrate that such small(er) software exists. Again, the idea I even have to state this, to someone on this forum, seems surreal. There are alternatives to Windows and to Linux distributions, at least in my case. I know for fact I am not the only one using small(er) software, but I am not comfortable speaking for others. What software they choose to use is their business, not mine.

wvenable 11y ago

Why didn't you just answer the question? Which small software are did you use to post your comment? Why be so vague?

loginusername 11y ago
What difference does it make what small software program I am using? You do not believe such a program exists? Or maybe you want to critique the program? That would be typical commenter behavior, but it is totally irrelevant to the discussion. The topic is Microsoft software and the relationship between code size and probability of security flaws.
- wvenable 11y ago
  > What difference does it make what small software program I am using? You brought it up and now you don't want to say, I find that odd. It's hard to have a conversation if you're going to be so.. cryptic. > Or maybe you want to critique the program? Maybe I want a significant example of a "small program". At this point, neither terms have been well defined. You called the program used to make your comment "small" so tell me what it is. > The topic is Microsoft software and the relationship between code size and probability of security flaws. The greater the code size the greater the probability of bugs. And security flaws can be exploited utilizing the combined flaws across different independent programs or included libraries. My point is the only programs so small that security issues are a non-issue are either not interesting or combined with other programs to do something useful.
  - loginusername 11y ago
    "The greater the code size the greater the probability of bugs." Right. I think we are done here. Microsoft Windows is larger than any OS I know of, and only keeps growing. To answer your question, I am using a text only browser that's based on the links project, with my own minor modifications. I still have no idea why you and the other commenter are asking. It seems quite clear neither of you have any legitimate interest in such programs. Otherwise you would not be challenging my statement of such a simple fact as the quoted sentence above, as it applies to Microsoft. I strongly disagree that "small" programs are not useful. As I have previously stated, I use them every day. I use programs such as sed and netcat to interact with the www even more than I use a browser.