10 ms·

What should I use for casual, daily chatting with friends that runs on Android, iOS, Linux, Windows, Windows Phone, web, and allows group messaging and message

What should I use for casual, daily chatting with friends that runs on Android, iOS, Linux, Windows, Windows Phone, web, and allows group messaging and message history search?

darklajid 11y ago
I'm in the same boat. I use Telegram. Not because it's secure (I don't know, I believe others that claim that it might not be), but because it works for me. WhatsApp (most popular?) doesn't. ChatSecure (most secure?) doesn't. I'd say 'Use Telegram' with the caveat that you shouldn't trust it blindly? Use it as a better and cross-platform SMS/text experience, which might or might not be more secure.
- fabulist 11y ago
  If you're a Telegram user who's cautious with what you say, assuming that anything you transmit could potentially be intercepted, you will certainly be more secure than a {Chat,Text}Secure user with complete faith in their technology. Edited to add: The same could well be true for someone using plaintext.
klagermkii 11y ago
I keep seeing these dire warnings whenever Telegram is mentioned, and I don't understand the hate. Is it some super secure platform? Probably not, but people needing a provably NSA-resistant chat client is such a tiny percentage of the people interested in regular chatting. None of the warnings I see have the nuance of "don't use it if you think it'll keep you safe from the government, but otherwise it's a pretty nice service to use" nor do they list the chat services that they feel are more secure. Compared to the alternatives of Skype, WhatsApp, SMS, Hangouts, iMessage, etc it's a good chat service, with a relatively lightweight native client on multiple platforms, actual working sync, and good recovery when used on poor Internet connection.
- fabulist 11y ago
  People don't like Telegram because they claim to be a company which cares deeply about security and privacy, offering a "200% secure" chat client, while blatantly ignoring the concerns of the security community. Doing things like using a hand-rolled, proofless KDF isn't just a bad idea when considering a nation-state adversary. It's a bad idea against every adversary. It's the cryptographic equivalent of staking an ADT sign in your yard without purchasing an alarm. It is unethical to market snake oil.
- Chris2048 11y ago
  The press have been bad-mouthing our cars recently based on the fact that they explode violently if they crash. Are they super-duper safe? No. Will driving our cars grant you immortality? also, No. But no car can promise this, and driving any car inherently runs the risk of dying - No car is provably 100% safe! If you're really worried about this, just don't drive! Most car drivers won't care anyway, very few people crash their cars on a day-to-day basis, so it's not really relevant. </good-natured-sarcasm> exaggerated/straw-man comparisons, or appeal-to-low-standards doesn't really satisfy these kind of concerns... <good-natured-sarcasm>
- mikeash 11y ago
  "Telegram is a messaging app with a focus on speed and security...." If it's not actually secure then they shouldn't advertise it as secure. An app that advertises itself as secure but isn't is naturally going to attract more hate than an app which doesn't advertise security in the first place. Nobody forced them to advertise security. If they just wanted to be a a good chat service with the advantages you listed, they could just do that. But if you advertise security, you had better deliver!
- sarciszewski 11y ago
  > I keep seeing these dire warnings whenever Telegram is mentioned, and I don't understand the hate. The hate stems from two main sources: 1. They're claiming to be secure in a very flamboyant (even arrogant) manner by challenging the world's cryptographers to break their protocol, but the contest is structured to be unwinnable regardless of how shitty their crypto actually is. 2. Telegram spends less time improving their crypto (which is full of WTFs) and instead markets themselves to people who aren't technical enough to figure out how shitty it really is. Seriously, avoid Telegram. If you want Signal to work on more platforms, send a check to Open Whisper Systems and help them build up their team to cover more area.
mtgx 11y ago
Message history search? Do you even want to use a secure messaging app?
odiroot 11y ago
Just use Telegram and ignore people with obvious beef against it. At least it's not Hangouts or Facebook chat.
- lmm 11y ago
  What do you mean "at least"? You're better off with Hangouts or Facebook chat - Telegram flags you up as someone trying to hide, while not offering any actual security.
  - frabcus 11y ago
    It has 60 million monthly active users, and it doesn't even encrypt by default. I think I agree that using encryption on Telegram singles you out though!
  - celticninja 11y ago
    and google is probably an open system to the NSA and US government, you dont need to even appear to be someone who has something to hide they will target you because they easy have access to your data.
lmm 11y ago
Aside from Windows Phone does CryptoCat cover it?
antihero 11y ago
Telegram. For secure things, Signal/ChatSecure or something else by moxie. For 99% of the shit you do, the convenience will usually outweigh the limitations brought on by doing crypto properly, for instance not having a desktop client.
rmc 11y ago
Edward Snowdon recommends Signal from Open Whisper Systems.
- Spearchucker 11y ago
  And it's a good recommendation, IMO. Still not something I'll ever use because it too slurps up contacts. I mentioned this some time ago, and the responses were interesting - from "that's not a bad thing" to "but they do it in a nice way". Claiming to be secure, and then taking what's mine away from my control is unacceptable to me.
  - StavrosK 11y ago
    Phil Zimmermann has developed a new protocol, which Silent Phone uses, which makes it impossible (or very hard) for the server to know the contacts on your phone while doing discovery. I'm going to write up the protocol and publish a reference server I wrote in Go in a few days. I'll post it here and send it to Open Whisper Systems as well, they may want to integrate it.
    - robbiep 11y ago
      Just a bookmarking comment
      - mikeash 11y ago
        Just in case you don't know, if you upvote a comment then it becomes available on your profile page under "saved comments." Obviously, if you're extremely liberal with the upvote button, this may not be useful as a bookmark....
        EGreg 11y ago
        I think I should make a bookmarklet for HN to do additional things like this. Useful? I would call it Show.hn :-)
        11y ago
upofadown 11y ago
Obviously the same app will not run on every possible platform. So the question should be; what protocol should I use for casual daily chatting? Message history search would be the part implemented at the client level. This tendency to talk about the name/brand of the client instead of the protocol is a current problem with IM. The ISIS people should really be writing articles about OTR and TOR to address their particular application. I have a friend that thinks I use the Pidgin chat system because that is what she uses when she chats with me on XMPP. Since Pidgin does not run on her phone she thinks she can only chat with me when she is at her computer. So far all attempts to explain the idea of an interoperable protocol have failed.
- antihero 11y ago
  Da'esh, ignoring the fact that they're a terrorist organisation, are actually trying to solve an interesting problem, which is, they need to be both secure, but also engage with/recruit people who are not so tech savvy and are used to easy social media apps with simple UX - basically they NEED to be BOTH secure AND accessible. So whilst they likely know of more secure options like PGP or OTR, these are not what their target audience are using or have the capability to use - they are interested in keeping the dragnet for new recruits wide, so have to tailor their approach for the current generation, hence Telegram, which is supposedly secure and also already making inroads in the current market as an alternative to WhatsApp, and is less geeky than something like Signal. I remember years back when I attempted the same problem with a thing called Wire, for activists, that I posted on here and combined Facebook/Twitter type stuff with "secure" messaging, which was a web based UI that implemented AES256 based browser encryption based on the Stanford JS library. I got thoroughly roasted by people that knew what they were doing, so I shut the project down realising that what I was doing was dangerous due to lack of qualification. It's interesting seeing all the projects that have sprouted up since, and clearly I was on the money with the initial idea. https://github.com/radiosilence/wire https://github.com/radiosilence/wire
StavrosK 11y ago
Facebook messenger, since privacy wasn't in your list of requirements. At least then you won't have the illusion.
- raverbashing 11y ago
  Telegram is private enough (unless you are in a list somewhere) FB Messenger works fine but of course is not private w.r.t. FB Seems a good enough reason to use something different

What should I use for casual, daily chatting with friends that runs on Android, iOS, Linux, Windows, Windows Phone, web, and allows group messaging and message history search?

darklajid 11y ago

I'm in the same boat. I use Telegram. Not because it's secure (I don't know, I believe others that claim that it might not be), but because it works for me. WhatsApp (most popular?) doesn't. ChatSecure (most secure?) doesn't. I'd say 'Use Telegram' with the caveat that you shouldn't trust it blindly? Use it as a better and cross-platform SMS/text experience, which might or might not be more secure.

fabulist 11y ago
If you're a Telegram user who's cautious with what you say, assuming that anything you transmit could potentially be intercepted, you will certainly be more secure than a {Chat,Text}Secure user with complete faith in their technology. Edited to add: The same could well be true for someone using plaintext.

klagermkii 11y ago

I keep seeing these dire warnings whenever Telegram is mentioned, and I don't understand the hate. Is it some super secure platform? Probably not, but people needing a provably NSA-resistant chat client is such a tiny percentage of the people interested in regular chatting. None of the warnings I see have the nuance of "don't use it if you think it'll keep you safe from the government, but otherwise it's a pretty nice service to use" nor do they list the chat services that they feel are more secure. Compared to the alternatives of Skype, WhatsApp, SMS, Hangouts, iMessage, etc it's a good chat service, with a relatively lightweight native client on multiple platforms, actual working sync, and good recovery when used on poor Internet connection.

fabulist 11y ago
People don't like Telegram because they claim to be a company which cares deeply about security and privacy, offering a "200% secure" chat client, while blatantly ignoring the concerns of the security community. Doing things like using a hand-rolled, proofless KDF isn't just a bad idea when considering a nation-state adversary. It's a bad idea against every adversary. It's the cryptographic equivalent of staking an ADT sign in your yard without purchasing an alarm. It is unethical to market snake oil.
Chris2048 11y ago
The press have been bad-mouthing our cars recently based on the fact that they explode violently if they crash. Are they super-duper safe? No. Will driving our cars grant you immortality? also, No. But no car can promise this, and driving any car inherently runs the risk of dying - No car is provably 100% safe! If you're really worried about this, just don't drive! Most car drivers won't care anyway, very few people crash their cars on a day-to-day basis, so it's not really relevant. </good-natured-sarcasm> exaggerated/straw-man comparisons, or appeal-to-low-standards doesn't really satisfy these kind of concerns... <good-natured-sarcasm>
mikeash 11y ago
"Telegram is a messaging app with a focus on speed and security...." If it's not actually secure then they shouldn't advertise it as secure. An app that advertises itself as secure but isn't is naturally going to attract more hate than an app which doesn't advertise security in the first place. Nobody forced them to advertise security. If they just wanted to be a a good chat service with the advantages you listed, they could just do that. But if you advertise security, you had better deliver!
sarciszewski 11y ago
> I keep seeing these dire warnings whenever Telegram is mentioned, and I don't understand the hate. The hate stems from two main sources: 1. They're claiming to be secure in a very flamboyant (even arrogant) manner by challenging the world's cryptographers to break their protocol, but the contest is structured to be unwinnable regardless of how shitty their crypto actually is. 2. Telegram spends less time improving their crypto (which is full of WTFs) and instead markets themselves to people who aren't technical enough to figure out how shitty it really is. Seriously, avoid Telegram. If you want Signal to work on more platforms, send a check to Open Whisper Systems and help them build up their team to cover more area.

mtgx 11y ago

Message history search? Do you even want to use a secure messaging app?

odiroot 11y ago

Just use Telegram and ignore people with obvious beef against it. At least it's not Hangouts or Facebook chat.

lmm 11y ago
What do you mean "at least"? You're better off with Hangouts or Facebook chat - Telegram flags you up as someone trying to hide, while not offering any actual security.
- frabcus 11y ago
  It has 60 million monthly active users, and it doesn't even encrypt by default. I think I agree that using encryption on Telegram singles you out though!
- celticninja 11y ago
  and google is probably an open system to the NSA and US government, you dont need to even appear to be someone who has something to hide they will target you because they easy have access to your data.

lmm 11y ago

Aside from Windows Phone does CryptoCat cover it?

antihero 11y ago

Telegram. For secure things, Signal/ChatSecure or something else by moxie. For 99% of the shit you do, the convenience will usually outweigh the limitations brought on by doing crypto properly, for instance not having a desktop client.

rmc 11y ago

Edward Snowdon recommends Signal from Open Whisper Systems.

Spearchucker 11y ago
And it's a good recommendation, IMO. Still not something I'll ever use because it too slurps up contacts. I mentioned this some time ago, and the responses were interesting - from "that's not a bad thing" to "but they do it in a nice way". Claiming to be secure, and then taking what's mine away from my control is unacceptable to me.
- StavrosK 11y ago
  Phil Zimmermann has developed a new protocol, which Silent Phone uses, which makes it impossible (or very hard) for the server to know the contacts on your phone while doing discovery. I'm going to write up the protocol and publish a reference server I wrote in Go in a few days. I'll post it here and send it to Open Whisper Systems as well, they may want to integrate it.
  - robbiep 11y ago
    Just a bookmarking comment
    - mikeash 11y ago
      Just in case you don't know, if you upvote a comment then it becomes available on your profile page under "saved comments." Obviously, if you're extremely liberal with the upvote button, this may not be useful as a bookmark....
      - EGreg 11y ago
        I think I should make a bookmarklet for HN to do additional things like this. Useful? I would call it Show.hn :-)
      - 11y ago

upofadown 11y ago

Obviously the same app will not run on every possible platform. So the question should be; what protocol should I use for casual daily chatting? Message history search would be the part implemented at the client level. This tendency to talk about the name/brand of the client instead of the protocol is a current problem with IM. The ISIS people should really be writing articles about OTR and TOR to address their particular application. I have a friend that thinks I use the Pidgin chat system because that is what she uses when she chats with me on XMPP. Since Pidgin does not run on her phone she thinks she can only chat with me when she is at her computer. So far all attempts to explain the idea of an interoperable protocol have failed.

antihero 11y ago
Da'esh, ignoring the fact that they're a terrorist organisation, are actually trying to solve an interesting problem, which is, they need to be both secure, but also engage with/recruit people who are not so tech savvy and are used to easy social media apps with simple UX - basically they NEED to be BOTH secure AND accessible. So whilst they likely know of more secure options like PGP or OTR, these are not what their target audience are using or have the capability to use - they are interested in keeping the dragnet for new recruits wide, so have to tailor their approach for the current generation, hence Telegram, which is supposedly secure and also already making inroads in the current market as an alternative to WhatsApp, and is less geeky than something like Signal. I remember years back when I attempted the same problem with a thing called Wire, for activists, that I posted on here and combined Facebook/Twitter type stuff with "secure" messaging, which was a web based UI that implemented AES256 based browser encryption based on the Stanford JS library. I got thoroughly roasted by people that knew what they were doing, so I shut the project down realising that what I was doing was dangerous due to lack of qualification. It's interesting seeing all the projects that have sprouted up since, and clearly I was on the money with the initial idea. https://github.com/radiosilence/wire https://github.com/radiosilence/wire

StavrosK 11y ago

Facebook messenger, since privacy wasn't in your list of requirements. At least then you won't have the illusion.

raverbashing 11y ago
Telegram is private enough (unless you are in a list somewhere) FB Messenger works fine but of course is not private w.r.t. FB Seems a good enough reason to use something different