4 ms·

While I'm in agreement with you on this (I've watched the video, and I'm as pissed off as you are), it's worth noting that a few unreasonable students should no

by markbao 11y ago

While I'm in agreement with you on this (I've watched the video, and I'm as pissed off as you are), it's worth noting that a few unreasonable students should not serve as the poster child for all student protestors. Lately, they have been, and it's unfair to the protestors (and ourselves, if we're concerned about having a clear understanding of the situation) to assume that unreasonable individuals, of which there are many in any large group, are the norm and not the exception. The articles and open letters that student groups have been releasing give a more detailed (though obviously biased) view of the situation that shows how complex it is. Here's one from the protests at Claremont McKenna, worth reading to understand where they are coming from: http://cmcforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/FINALMarginalizedStudentArticle.pdf http://cmcforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/FINALMarginal... On the flip side, organizers of groups and movements should be held accountable since they directly represent their movement. Earlier today, a protest organizer at Smith College demanded that only journalists that "agreed to explicitly state they supported the movement in their articles" would be welcome at the event. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/19/these-college-protesters-are-demanding-the-media-who-cover-them-support-their-cause-really/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/19/th...

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ericjang 11y ago
What are your thoughts on each listed aggression anecdote and their efficacy in communicating the student group's thesis?
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superuser2 11y ago
I'm surrounded by a great many people who unequivocally side with this movement. One of their refrains is that if you are neutral, you have taken the side of the oppressor. I was raised by journalists and academics. To me, there's no question that universities must be neutral platforms and good journalism reports what's there without taking a side. But I am a straight white man from a middle-class family. A supporter of the movement will tell you that the elevation of free inquiry and free expression to "value" status, as something with intrinsic worth and deserving of protection, was a fraud perpetrated by white men to sustain their power. A good many of my acquaintances actually believe the idea that there is objective truth that you can uncover scientifically is a similar fraud, so that white male academics would have access to tools like rational arguments or pointing out logical fallacies to better oppress everyone else. To these people, the only thing that matters is the subjective "lived experience" of people who are not straight white men. Everything else can go to hell. Viewed in this light, their actions actually make perfect sense.
- markbao 11y ago
  Yes, very well said. I'm currently on a very activist college campus and also have many friends (and follow many people on Twitter) who side with this movement. To an extent, I'm sympathetic to the difficulty of actually being heard. There was an open letter recently from one student activism group that said that they would not protest "respectfully" because they feel that that is just another way for their voices to be suppressed, or some such. That's a hard problem. It does seem like there has been a lot of talk and not a lot of walk from the people/institutions that hold power, and if I were on the activism side, I'd also be extremely frustrated. Not related to that open letter, but this article gives a view into some of that frustration: https://medium.com/@aaronzlewis/what-s-really-going-on-at-yale-6bdbbeeb57a6 https://medium.com/@aaronzlewis/what-s-really-going-on-at-ya... What's interesting is that the closest case I can find that relates to how some of these student protestors, who seem to be mostly liberal, perceive the situation, are conservatives. In reaction to social science studies that show that, say, African-Americans are systematically disenfranchised in the country, some conservatives attack social science itself, saying that it is inherently leftist, or biased in some way, the methodology is wrong, it's not a real science, etc. Similarly, some activists, like you said, would respond to the appeals to free inquiry and free expression by attacking the 'holiness' of free inquiry and free expression. Certainly possible that that's all a fraud to elevate those in power, but they seem pretty self-evident to me, not the least because free expression and inquiry, on the whole, seem to benefit the minority rather than those in power IMO.
- icanhackit 11y ago
  To these people, the only thing that matters is the subjective "lived experience" of people who are not straight white men. I experienced this in a discussion several years ago with a young lesbian university student (I'm not trying to shoehorn a complex individual into a category - I'm merely adding context). She referred to me as "cis" meaning Cisgender or that my sexuality agrees with my gender. The way she used it was in the white-straight-guy sense of the term, which to translate further meant any perspective I held was probably tainted, unremarkable, and privileged. I was quite a bit older than her so that possibly added an extra layer of distrust. Getting back to Cisgender, I'd never heard the term before that point but I thought it was fascinating: that by defining people by gender and sexuality it becomes a kind of matrix. You could define yourself as a gay male sexually while possessing the gender of a female. In effect you're in a straight relationship (female and male) but really it's more granular. I actually like the idea. At least by asking about gender-sexuality matrices I was able to turn the discussion into something a bit more positive with the student. But...yeah, in those situations just ask questions. Your perspective isn't welcome.

by markbao 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

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ericjang 11y ago

What are your thoughts on each listed aggression anecdote and their efficacy in communicating the student group's thesis?

deleted 11y ago
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superuser2 11y ago

I'm surrounded by a great many people who unequivocally side with this movement. One of their refrains is that if you are neutral, you have taken the side of the oppressor. I was raised by journalists and academics. To me, there's no question that universities must be neutral platforms and good journalism reports what's there without taking a side. But I am a straight white man from a middle-class family. A supporter of the movement will tell you that the elevation of free inquiry and free expression to "value" status, as something with intrinsic worth and deserving of protection, was a fraud perpetrated by white men to sustain their power. A good many of my acquaintances actually believe the idea that there is objective truth that you can uncover scientifically is a similar fraud, so that white male academics would have access to tools like rational arguments or pointing out logical fallacies to better oppress everyone else. To these people, the only thing that matters is the subjective "lived experience" of people who are not straight white men. Everything else can go to hell. Viewed in this light, their actions actually make perfect sense.

markbao 11y ago
Yes, very well said. I'm currently on a very activist college campus and also have many friends (and follow many people on Twitter) who side with this movement. To an extent, I'm sympathetic to the difficulty of actually being heard. There was an open letter recently from one student activism group that said that they would not protest "respectfully" because they feel that that is just another way for their voices to be suppressed, or some such. That's a hard problem. It does seem like there has been a lot of talk and not a lot of walk from the people/institutions that hold power, and if I were on the activism side, I'd also be extremely frustrated. Not related to that open letter, but this article gives a view into some of that frustration: https://medium.com/@aaronzlewis/what-s-really-going-on-at-yale-6bdbbeeb57a6 https://medium.com/@aaronzlewis/what-s-really-going-on-at-ya... What's interesting is that the closest case I can find that relates to how some of these student protestors, who seem to be mostly liberal, perceive the situation, are conservatives. In reaction to social science studies that show that, say, African-Americans are systematically disenfranchised in the country, some conservatives attack social science itself, saying that it is inherently leftist, or biased in some way, the methodology is wrong, it's not a real science, etc. Similarly, some activists, like you said, would respond to the appeals to free inquiry and free expression by attacking the 'holiness' of free inquiry and free expression. Certainly possible that that's all a fraud to elevate those in power, but they seem pretty self-evident to me, not the least because free expression and inquiry, on the whole, seem to benefit the minority rather than those in power IMO.
icanhackit 11y ago
To these people, the only thing that matters is the subjective "lived experience" of people who are not straight white men. I experienced this in a discussion several years ago with a young lesbian university student (I'm not trying to shoehorn a complex individual into a category - I'm merely adding context). She referred to me as "cis" meaning Cisgender or that my sexuality agrees with my gender. The way she used it was in the white-straight-guy sense of the term, which to translate further meant any perspective I held was probably tainted, unremarkable, and privileged. I was quite a bit older than her so that possibly added an extra layer of distrust. Getting back to Cisgender, I'd never heard the term before that point but I thought it was fascinating: that by defining people by gender and sexuality it becomes a kind of matrix. You could define yourself as a gay male sexually while possessing the gender of a female. In effect you're in a straight relationship (female and male) but really it's more granular. I actually like the idea. At least by asking about gender-sexuality matrices I was able to turn the discussion into something a bit more positive with the student. But...yeah, in those situations just ask questions. Your perspective isn't welcome.