7 ms·

I've been following a lot of this develop over Twitter and Youtube. It's both sad and terrifying to see what is transpiring on these college campuses. There wa

by _Marak_ 11y ago

I've been following a lot of this develop over Twitter and Youtube. It's both sad and terrifying to see what is transpiring on these college campuses. There was a video filmed ( now taken down from youtube ) where a Yale Silliman College professor was trying to reason with some of these students. The professor vehemently defended the rights to free-speech, while the students screamed at him that offensive speech should not be allowed on campus. When the professor asked, "Who should be responsible for determining what is offensive speech?", a student replied with, "Anything that offends me!".

peterhadlaw 11y ago
That professor was mistakenly expecting reason from those students. He behaved and treated them with respect only to be completely disrespected (to put it lightly) himself. It was quite disappointing seeing him try to be honest and fair only to be belligerently yelled at.
- icanhackit 11y ago
  It was quite disappointing seeing him try to be honest and fair only to be belligerently yelled at. I assume you mean the way he was treated was disappointing, not that he acted as a role-model for young, inexperienced and still developing students. When you say he was mistakenly expecting reason, I think if he was having a discussion with each individual he would have been convincing. When it comes to hanging out with people I live by a (perhaps mean-spirited) rule - the larger the group of people you're talking to, the fewer topics you can delve into deeply. If you have one person you can find a common topic that you can share and dive into. However if someone else joins the two of you, you now need to find a common topic between the three of you. The likely outcome is that it will need to be more popular and less esoteric, thus probably less interesting. Now have a group of people: discussion will be centered around what's on TV etc and political or philosophical discussions need to be watered down heavily or cut out of the discussion. I think a similar thing is going on here - the crowd, collectively, is dumb. Even if it's composed of smart individuals.
x0x0 11y ago
Is this where we pretend that there's no history of racial grievances at Yale (or Mizzou), and that history started afresh the minute before this confrontation? An honest accounting of what happened starts with the fact that there is a long history that had people simmering. Free speech is a wonderful principle, but it conflicts with making students, particularly minority students, not feel alienated. This started when someone at Yale sent a relatively anodyne email suggesting (but not ordering!) students be reasonably racially conscious in their costume choices (ie no blackface) [0], and someone who is "charged with setting the 'intellectual, social, and ethical tone of the College'" [1] decided to salt the wound and mocked the idea that students may be legitimately offended by cultural appropriation [2]. As mostly male white people, it's easy to defend free speech when it isn't your people or culture being treated as a costume. If you're curious about Yale, imagine, for starters, how living in, say, Calhoun hall would feel if you're black [3]. Calhoun College, one of the 12 residential colleges at the heart of the university’s undergraduate life. It is named for John C. Calhoun, a Yale valedictorian-turned-politician from South Carolina and one of the 19th century’s foremost white supremacists, who promoted slavery as "a positive good." [1] http://pastebin.com/TLGSdaTg http://pastebin.com/TLGSdaTg [1] http://silliman.yalecollege.yale.edu/people/masters-office http://silliman.yalecollege.yale.edu/people/masters-office [2] https://www.thefire.org/email-from-erika-christakis-dressing-yourselves-email-to-silliman-college-yale-students-on-halloween-costumes/ https://www.thefire.org/email-from-erika-christakis-dressing... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/12/nyregion/yale-in-debate-over-calhoun-college-grapples-with-ties-to-slavery.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/12/nyregion/yale-in-debate-ov...
- Gigablah 11y ago
  No, this is where we acknowledge that both sides can be varying degrees of wrong and right, and that people can lose sight of their original arguments.
- integraton 11y ago
  > As mostly male white people, it's easy to defend free speech when it isn't your people or culture being treated as a costume. Saint Patrick's Day.
markbao 11y ago
While I'm in agreement with you on this (I've watched the video, and I'm as pissed off as you are), it's worth noting that a few unreasonable students should not serve as the poster child for all student protestors. Lately, they have been, and it's unfair to the protestors (and ourselves, if we're concerned about having a clear understanding of the situation) to assume that unreasonable individuals, of which there are many in any large group, are the norm and not the exception. The articles and open letters that student groups have been releasing give a more detailed (though obviously biased) view of the situation that shows how complex it is. Here's one from the protests at Claremont McKenna, worth reading to understand where they are coming from: http://cmcforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/FINALMarginalizedStudentArticle.pdf http://cmcforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/FINALMarginal... On the flip side, organizers of groups and movements should be held accountable since they directly represent their movement. Earlier today, a protest organizer at Smith College demanded that only journalists that "agreed to explicitly state they supported the movement in their articles" would be welcome at the event. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/19/these-college-protesters-are-demanding-the-media-who-cover-them-support-their-cause-really/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/19/th...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- ericjang 11y ago
  What are your thoughts on each listed aggression anecdote and their efficacy in communicating the student group's thesis?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- superuser2 11y ago
  I'm surrounded by a great many people who unequivocally side with this movement. One of their refrains is that if you are neutral, you have taken the side of the oppressor. I was raised by journalists and academics. To me, there's no question that universities must be neutral platforms and good journalism reports what's there without taking a side. But I am a straight white man from a middle-class family. A supporter of the movement will tell you that the elevation of free inquiry and free expression to "value" status, as something with intrinsic worth and deserving of protection, was a fraud perpetrated by white men to sustain their power. A good many of my acquaintances actually believe the idea that there is objective truth that you can uncover scientifically is a similar fraud, so that white male academics would have access to tools like rational arguments or pointing out logical fallacies to better oppress everyone else. To these people, the only thing that matters is the subjective "lived experience" of people who are not straight white men. Everything else can go to hell. Viewed in this light, their actions actually make perfect sense.
thex10 11y ago
The free-speech argument is a weak one at best. Just because they're a screaming professor doesn't mean they're correct.
joelrunyon 11y ago
Is there a mirror of this anywhere?
- scintill76 11y ago
  Here's a mirror linked to that part of the exchange: https://youtu.be/3JUfnYlgGlY?t=45 https://youtu.be/3JUfnYlgGlY?t=45 This reddit post probably links to the original: https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/3s5wz2/yale_administrators_responds_to_safe_space_hands/ https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/3s5wz2/yale_adminis... (the comments seem to match the content of the mirror above and of my memory of the original.) The link there is now down "due to a copyright claim by Yale Daily News."
noobermin 11y ago
I'm 25, and I've lived in two cultures and racially I'm not white. I do not, however, understand this fear of offensive speech. Moreover, I cannot ignore the coincidence of the rise of this hypersensitivity and the rise of helicopter parenting and the general hand holding that has become more common for the last few years. Could these two things be related? When I was a kid (<5, so in the early 90's), my parents didn't let me leave the neighborhood, and probably rightfully so as I didn't live in a "safe" area. However, my elementary school didn't even let us walk freely on the same block as our school. I then moved to Palau, where my parents were from, in which the local kids make their own firecrackers with kerosene and mountain dew cans. To go from such a protected environment to a less protected one got me to see two different worlds...and may be "balanced" me out. Either way, when I returned to the US a few years ago, and I've begun to see this protectiveness intensify. Just today, I saw kids walking on the street lead by an adult with their hands holding onto a string. When I was a kid, I perhaps walked holding hands with a partner in line, but a string? I've even seen children on a leash... I understand, we should look to protect vulnerable children and teens from bad situations, but after a while, should we let people who are, as the article says, old enough to drive, marry, own guns, and some old enough to smoke and drink alcohol, make decisions and perhaps face the consequences of those decisions? This makes them more receptive to situations were they might be hurt or feel offense, and given that they are bound to face this, it will just make them better people and better adults.
- simoncion 11y ago
  > I've even seen children on a leash... Yeah, this particular thing isn't terribly new. This was around in the 1990's, and quite possibly even earlier than that.
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    At least the 1970s, based on a friend's experience.
- userbinator 11y ago
  I think the overarching trend here is that people are, for some reason, becoming increasingly reluctant to take responsibility for their own lives - they want others to do everything for them so they can essentially be in a continuous state of pleasure and safety/security, even if it means giving up freedom (that old Benjamin Franklin quote seems more relevant than ever today, with all the things it's related to...) The theme seems to be along the lines of "if people are free, they are free to do things that I don't like". In computing, you can definitely see this trend developing rapidly in the form of locked-down devices and software designed to discourage anything potentially "risky", all because of security. The desire to feel safe and worry-free is instinctive and powerful, but at the same time I believe we should not let the pursuit of that state get in the way of what makes life actually interesting and a unique experience; risk, failure, sadness, anger, and all the other "negative" things are just as important to experience as happiness and the feeling of security.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
chroma 11y ago
I agree with much of what you said, but do you have a link to a video containing those quotes? Because I watched the videos from the impromptu conversation with some students[1] and at no point does anyone say anything like what you quoted. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoxJKmuoBmE&list=PLvIqJIL2kOMefn77xg6-6yrvek5kbNf3Z&index=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoxJKmuoBmE&list=PLvIqJIL2kO...
- scintill76 11y ago
  Please see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10599885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10599885
suneilp 11y ago
Too much anger. Too much self-entitlement that has arisen out being told one has the right to feel what they want and expect their dignity to be respected. Those are good things in of themselves, however, as your typical kung fu or jedi master would say, anger clouds the mind. These "kids" can't regulate their emotions or put themselves in another person's shoes. Those are difficult things. Teaching them isn't easy either.

by _Marak_ 11y ago

peterhadlaw 11y ago

That professor was mistakenly expecting reason from those students. He behaved and treated them with respect only to be completely disrespected (to put it lightly) himself. It was quite disappointing seeing him try to be honest and fair only to be belligerently yelled at.

icanhackit 11y ago
It was quite disappointing seeing him try to be honest and fair only to be belligerently yelled at. I assume you mean the way he was treated was disappointing, not that he acted as a role-model for young, inexperienced and still developing students. When you say he was mistakenly expecting reason, I think if he was having a discussion with each individual he would have been convincing. When it comes to hanging out with people I live by a (perhaps mean-spirited) rule - the larger the group of people you're talking to, the fewer topics you can delve into deeply. If you have one person you can find a common topic that you can share and dive into. However if someone else joins the two of you, you now need to find a common topic between the three of you. The likely outcome is that it will need to be more popular and less esoteric, thus probably less interesting. Now have a group of people: discussion will be centered around what's on TV etc and political or philosophical discussions need to be watered down heavily or cut out of the discussion. I think a similar thing is going on here - the crowd, collectively, is dumb. Even if it's composed of smart individuals.

x0x0 11y ago

Is this where we pretend that there's no history of racial grievances at Yale (or Mizzou), and that history started afresh the minute before this confrontation? An honest accounting of what happened starts with the fact that there is a long history that had people simmering. Free speech is a wonderful principle, but it conflicts with making students, particularly minority students, not feel alienated. This started when someone at Yale sent a relatively anodyne email suggesting (but not ordering!) students be reasonably racially conscious in their costume choices (ie no blackface) [0], and someone who is "charged with setting the 'intellectual, social, and ethical tone of the College'" [1] decided to salt the wound and mocked the idea that students may be legitimately offended by cultural appropriation [2]. As mostly male white people, it's easy to defend free speech when it isn't your people or culture being treated as a costume. If you're curious about Yale, imagine, for starters, how living in, say, Calhoun hall would feel if you're black [3]. Calhoun College, one of the 12 residential colleges at the heart of the university’s undergraduate life. It is named for John C. Calhoun, a Yale valedictorian-turned-politician from South Carolina and one of the 19th century’s foremost white supremacists, who promoted slavery as "a positive good." [1] http://pastebin.com/TLGSdaTg http://pastebin.com/TLGSdaTg [1] http://silliman.yalecollege.yale.edu/people/masters-office http://silliman.yalecollege.yale.edu/people/masters-office [2] https://www.thefire.org/email-from-erika-christakis-dressing-yourselves-email-to-silliman-college-yale-students-on-halloween-costumes/ https://www.thefire.org/email-from-erika-christakis-dressing... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/12/nyregion/yale-in-debate-over-calhoun-college-grapples-with-ties-to-slavery.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/12/nyregion/yale-in-debate-ov...

Gigablah 11y ago
No, this is where we acknowledge that both sides can be varying degrees of wrong and right, and that people can lose sight of their original arguments.
integraton 11y ago
> As mostly male white people, it's easy to defend free speech when it isn't your people or culture being treated as a costume. Saint Patrick's Day.

markbao 11y ago

While I'm in agreement with you on this (I've watched the video, and I'm as pissed off as you are), it's worth noting that a few unreasonable students should not serve as the poster child for all student protestors. Lately, they have been, and it's unfair to the protestors (and ourselves, if we're concerned about having a clear understanding of the situation) to assume that unreasonable individuals, of which there are many in any large group, are the norm and not the exception. The articles and open letters that student groups have been releasing give a more detailed (though obviously biased) view of the situation that shows how complex it is. Here's one from the protests at Claremont McKenna, worth reading to understand where they are coming from: http://cmcforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/FINALMarginalizedStudentArticle.pdf http://cmcforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/FINALMarginal... On the flip side, organizers of groups and movements should be held accountable since they directly represent their movement. Earlier today, a protest organizer at Smith College demanded that only journalists that "agreed to explicitly state they supported the movement in their articles" would be welcome at the event. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/19/these-college-protesters-are-demanding-the-media-who-cover-them-support-their-cause-really/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/19/th...

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ericjang 11y ago
What are your thoughts on each listed aggression anecdote and their efficacy in communicating the student group's thesis?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
superuser2 11y ago
I'm surrounded by a great many people who unequivocally side with this movement. One of their refrains is that if you are neutral, you have taken the side of the oppressor. I was raised by journalists and academics. To me, there's no question that universities must be neutral platforms and good journalism reports what's there without taking a side. But I am a straight white man from a middle-class family. A supporter of the movement will tell you that the elevation of free inquiry and free expression to "value" status, as something with intrinsic worth and deserving of protection, was a fraud perpetrated by white men to sustain their power. A good many of my acquaintances actually believe the idea that there is objective truth that you can uncover scientifically is a similar fraud, so that white male academics would have access to tools like rational arguments or pointing out logical fallacies to better oppress everyone else. To these people, the only thing that matters is the subjective "lived experience" of people who are not straight white men. Everything else can go to hell. Viewed in this light, their actions actually make perfect sense.

thex10 11y ago

The free-speech argument is a weak one at best. Just because they're a screaming professor doesn't mean they're correct.

joelrunyon 11y ago

Is there a mirror of this anywhere?

scintill76 11y ago
Here's a mirror linked to that part of the exchange: https://youtu.be/3JUfnYlgGlY?t=45 https://youtu.be/3JUfnYlgGlY?t=45 This reddit post probably links to the original: https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/3s5wz2/yale_administrators_responds_to_safe_space_hands/ https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/3s5wz2/yale_adminis... (the comments seem to match the content of the mirror above and of my memory of the original.) The link there is now down "due to a copyright claim by Yale Daily News."

noobermin 11y ago

I'm 25, and I've lived in two cultures and racially I'm not white. I do not, however, understand this fear of offensive speech. Moreover, I cannot ignore the coincidence of the rise of this hypersensitivity and the rise of helicopter parenting and the general hand holding that has become more common for the last few years. Could these two things be related? When I was a kid (<5, so in the early 90's), my parents didn't let me leave the neighborhood, and probably rightfully so as I didn't live in a "safe" area. However, my elementary school didn't even let us walk freely on the same block as our school. I then moved to Palau, where my parents were from, in which the local kids make their own firecrackers with kerosene and mountain dew cans. To go from such a protected environment to a less protected one got me to see two different worlds...and may be "balanced" me out. Either way, when I returned to the US a few years ago, and I've begun to see this protectiveness intensify. Just today, I saw kids walking on the street lead by an adult with their hands holding onto a string. When I was a kid, I perhaps walked holding hands with a partner in line, but a string? I've even seen children on a leash... I understand, we should look to protect vulnerable children and teens from bad situations, but after a while, should we let people who are, as the article says, old enough to drive, marry, own guns, and some old enough to smoke and drink alcohol, make decisions and perhaps face the consequences of those decisions? This makes them more receptive to situations were they might be hurt or feel offense, and given that they are bound to face this, it will just make them better people and better adults.

simoncion 11y ago
> I've even seen children on a leash... Yeah, this particular thing isn't terribly new. This was around in the 1990's, and quite possibly even earlier than that.
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  At least the 1970s, based on a friend's experience.
userbinator 11y ago
I think the overarching trend here is that people are, for some reason, becoming increasingly reluctant to take responsibility for their own lives - they want others to do everything for them so they can essentially be in a continuous state of pleasure and safety/security, even if it means giving up freedom (that old Benjamin Franklin quote seems more relevant than ever today, with all the things it's related to...) The theme seems to be along the lines of "if people are free, they are free to do things that I don't like". In computing, you can definitely see this trend developing rapidly in the form of locked-down devices and software designed to discourage anything potentially "risky", all because of security. The desire to feel safe and worry-free is instinctive and powerful, but at the same time I believe we should not let the pursuit of that state get in the way of what makes life actually interesting and a unique experience; risk, failure, sadness, anger, and all the other "negative" things are just as important to experience as happiness and the feeling of security.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

chroma 11y ago

I agree with much of what you said, but do you have a link to a video containing those quotes? Because I watched the videos from the impromptu conversation with some students[1] and at no point does anyone say anything like what you quoted. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoxJKmuoBmE&list=PLvIqJIL2kOMefn77xg6-6yrvek5kbNf3Z&index=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoxJKmuoBmE&list=PLvIqJIL2kO...

scintill76 11y ago
Please see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10599885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10599885

suneilp 11y ago

Too much anger. Too much self-entitlement that has arisen out being told one has the right to feel what they want and expect their dignity to be respected. Those are good things in of themselves, however, as your typical kung fu or jedi master would say, anger clouds the mind. These "kids" can't regulate their emotions or put themselves in another person's shoes. Those are difficult things. Teaching them isn't easy either.