3 ms·

> Did your great-great-grandparents ask the Native population of the United States for permission to enter or do you happen to be a member of one of the origina

by defen 11y ago

> Did your great-great-grandparents ask the Native population of the United States for permission to enter or do you happen to be a member of one of the original tribes? So...because Europeans colonized North America and for all practical purposes genocided the natives, current citizens of the USA aren't allowed to have / enforce immigration laws? I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

jacquesm 11y ago
GP is making the case that this person should leave now that they are 18 and are cognizant of the fact that their parent is an illegal immigrant and therefore they too are illegal. That's a one generation hop. It's simple induction to go from one generation to more generations. If we're going to blame the children for the acts of their parents then why stop there, we might as well go further. And then at some point we find some Welsh people, recently converted to Mormonism that decided to move to the United States. He/she received permission to move. But from someone who in the eyes of the GGP was an illegal himself, or, at least very closely related to one. Which casts doubt on the legitimacy of that permission. See, if we're going to be irrational about immigration then I can do a pretty good job of that too. Sure it's not a defensible position, but then neither is the one the initial comment in this sub-thread is and I seriously wonder where he would draw the line. By his reasoning all Americans should pack up and leave once they turn 18 because they realize the extent of the crimes committed by their ancestors. Children that have lived their formative years in a country should - in my opinion - be allowed to continue as legal citizens of that country once they turn 18 (see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10598346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10598346 ). To wish to throw them out once they reach 18 is collective punishment of a degree that horrifies me. See elsewhere in this thread for why this subject hits a very raw nerve with me so apologies for the pointy answer.
- defen 11y ago
  You're literally making a "think of the children" argument. In reality people respond to incentives. If we implement the system you are describing, I believe we would see even more immigration fraud - people bringing their children to the USA and illegally overstaying their visa, knowing that the children will effectively become US citizens. There is already massive fraud & abuse of the "birthright citizenship" system - see birth tourism by pregnant Chinese women.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    No, I'm making the 'be sensible' argument. At some point someone's roots don't matter any more but they become citizens of the country they have lived their formative years in in all but name. If your immigration system is so malfunctioning that someone could spend pretty much their whole formative period - and not through any fault of their own - in your country then yes, you have just effectively gained another citizen. That the paperwork is out-of-sync with the real life situation is a formality, it does not in any way change the world in a negative way to synchronize those two where the paperwork is updated to reflect the reality on the ground.
    - defen 11y ago
      > If your immigration system is so malfunctioning that someone could spend pretty much their whole formative period - and not through any fault of their own - in your country then yes, you have just effectively gained another citizen. Are you saying the US should have been better about enforcing immigration law when his parents illegally overstayed their visa? In other words, they should have been caught and deported well before their child spent his entire formative period in the US? Don't you think at least some of your ire should be reserved for his parents, for putting him in this position?
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        > Don't you think at least some of your ire should be reserved for his parents, for putting him in this position? Absolutely. But we're not talking about his parents here we're talking about him. And as far as I can see (I did actually read the article) he went over and beyond the call of duty to normalize the situation once he became conscious of it.
  - analyst74 11y ago
    Majority of the Chinese birth tourism seems to be coming from either super rich families or well off middle class families. The former group are probably not worried about their children finding a job, maybe the safety an American citizenship provides is what they are after, I don't really know. The later group are probably thinking to send their children to the States later for better university education and job prospects, but most tend to seriously under-estimate the downside of having an American baby growing up in China, and over-estimate how much better American life is compared to their own. So closing the loophole is probably a good thing for all parties involved. Those Chinese families can still send their kids to America later in life and let them decide for themselves if they want to become Americans.

by defen 11y ago

jacquesm 11y ago

GP is making the case that this person should leave now that they are 18 and are cognizant of the fact that their parent is an illegal immigrant and therefore they too are illegal. That's a one generation hop. It's simple induction to go from one generation to more generations. If we're going to blame the children for the acts of their parents then why stop there, we might as well go further. And then at some point we find some Welsh people, recently converted to Mormonism that decided to move to the United States. He/she received permission to move. But from someone who in the eyes of the GGP was an illegal himself, or, at least very closely related to one. Which casts doubt on the legitimacy of that permission. See, if we're going to be irrational about immigration then I can do a pretty good job of that too. Sure it's not a defensible position, but then neither is the one the initial comment in this sub-thread is and I seriously wonder where he would draw the line. By his reasoning all Americans should pack up and leave once they turn 18 because they realize the extent of the crimes committed by their ancestors. Children that have lived their formative years in a country should - in my opinion - be allowed to continue as legal citizens of that country once they turn 18 (see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10598346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10598346 ). To wish to throw them out once they reach 18 is collective punishment of a degree that horrifies me. See elsewhere in this thread for why this subject hits a very raw nerve with me so apologies for the pointy answer.

defen 11y ago
You're literally making a "think of the children" argument. In reality people respond to incentives. If we implement the system you are describing, I believe we would see even more immigration fraud - people bringing their children to the USA and illegally overstaying their visa, knowing that the children will effectively become US citizens. There is already massive fraud & abuse of the "birthright citizenship" system - see birth tourism by pregnant Chinese women.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  No, I'm making the 'be sensible' argument. At some point someone's roots don't matter any more but they become citizens of the country they have lived their formative years in in all but name. If your immigration system is so malfunctioning that someone could spend pretty much their whole formative period - and not through any fault of their own - in your country then yes, you have just effectively gained another citizen. That the paperwork is out-of-sync with the real life situation is a formality, it does not in any way change the world in a negative way to synchronize those two where the paperwork is updated to reflect the reality on the ground.
  - defen 11y ago
    > If your immigration system is so malfunctioning that someone could spend pretty much their whole formative period - and not through any fault of their own - in your country then yes, you have just effectively gained another citizen. Are you saying the US should have been better about enforcing immigration law when his parents illegally overstayed their visa? In other words, they should have been caught and deported well before their child spent his entire formative period in the US? Don't you think at least some of your ire should be reserved for his parents, for putting him in this position?
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      > Don't you think at least some of your ire should be reserved for his parents, for putting him in this position? Absolutely. But we're not talking about his parents here we're talking about him. And as far as I can see (I did actually read the article) he went over and beyond the call of duty to normalize the situation once he became conscious of it.
- analyst74 11y ago
  Majority of the Chinese birth tourism seems to be coming from either super rich families or well off middle class families. The former group are probably not worried about their children finding a job, maybe the safety an American citizenship provides is what they are after, I don't really know. The later group are probably thinking to send their children to the States later for better university education and job prospects, but most tend to seriously under-estimate the downside of having an American baby growing up in China, and over-estimate how much better American life is compared to their own. So closing the loophole is probably a good thing for all parties involved. Those Chinese families can still send their kids to America later in life and let them decide for themselves if they want to become Americans.