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I think your point is valid (and I agree). However, your argument is not what Linus himself has emphasized. He emphasizes that his abrasiveness comes from the

I think your point is valid (and I agree). However, your argument is not what Linus himself has emphasized. He emphasizes that his abrasiveness comes from the idea that people must earn respect. Which is more than just wrong, it's completely idiotic. If life were about earning respect, what are you supposed to do if people disrespect you? Aren't we right back to marching from Selma to Montgomery?

x0x0 11y ago
The civil rights movement, in which people wished to, eg, not be lynched vs mean words on the internet. Below you compare similar mean words to actual terrorists fresh from murdering hundreds of people in Russia and France, not to mention random civilians stuck inside their territory. Good analogies.
- zardo 11y ago
  Civil rights is about a lot more than just not being murdered.
kazinator 11y ago
It occurs to me that you might be touching on the difference between "earn respect" and "earn freedom from disrespect". Also, the need to distinguish what different respects mean. There is respect as a person, versus respect as a knowledgeable kernel developer. (They are not always easy to separate. If someone keeps pushing their bad development ideas even though they have been thoroughly debunked, just because of their ego, I think my respect for them as a person will drop somewhat not only as a developer.) Still, the default toward some new person should be: basic respect as a person, neutral as a developer. I think that this is the case in the OSS project model; but then where it breaks down is that if the latter respect tanks, then the former does also. I.e. you're a good person if you're a good hacker (in particular one with mostly the same opinions as me), otherwise you're non grata scum.
- nickbauman 11y ago
  Yes of course. I would prefer if Linus made the distinction you're making by actually saying something like "respect as a programmer" But he didn't do that. When you program something correctly, it's expected to be correct to the keystroke. Here I think we should be able to expect correct to the point of distinct idea which is not what's coming across. It's almost to the point where Linus appears as an old man from pre civil rights days about things.
  - simoncion 11y ago
    > When you program something correctly, it's expected to be correct to the keystroke. Are you saying that this is the philosophy Torvalds holds? If you are not, then please disregard the rest of this paragraph (and, if you have the time, please let me know what you did mean.). If you are, then I'mma slap a big [citation needed] on that comment. While searching for that citation, do keep in mind that writing code for OS kernel is usually going to require much more in-depth knowledge of how a compiler optimizes things and the like than writing code for some CRUD application. This means that -not infrequently- single-character errors do have substantial significance.
    - nickbauman 11y ago
      Uh, It sounds like we're in violent agreement? What I'm saying is that if you code it wrong it's completely wrong, even if it's only off by one keystroke. There's no guessing. Computers aren't flexible in interpreting what you're writing. I don't think this requires a citation from Torvalds. It's just a fact.
      - simoncion 11y ago
        > Uh, It sounds like we're in violent agreement? So we are! I -somehow- completely failed to understand the subtext in your statement. :( Mea maxima culpa. Please disregard my stupidity.
- xkjkls 11y ago

x0x0 11y ago

The civil rights movement, in which people wished to, eg, not be lynched vs mean words on the internet. Below you compare similar mean words to actual terrorists fresh from murdering hundreds of people in Russia and France, not to mention random civilians stuck inside their territory. Good analogies.

zardo 11y ago
Civil rights is about a lot more than just not being murdered.

kazinator 11y ago

It occurs to me that you might be touching on the difference between "earn respect" and "earn freedom from disrespect". Also, the need to distinguish what different respects mean. There is respect as a person, versus respect as a knowledgeable kernel developer. (They are not always easy to separate. If someone keeps pushing their bad development ideas even though they have been thoroughly debunked, just because of their ego, I think my respect for them as a person will drop somewhat not only as a developer.) Still, the default toward some new person should be: basic respect as a person, neutral as a developer. I think that this is the case in the OSS project model; but then where it breaks down is that if the latter respect tanks, then the former does also. I.e. you're a good person if you're a good hacker (in particular one with mostly the same opinions as me), otherwise you're non grata scum.

nickbauman 11y ago
Yes of course. I would prefer if Linus made the distinction you're making by actually saying something like "respect as a programmer" But he didn't do that. When you program something correctly, it's expected to be correct to the keystroke. Here I think we should be able to expect correct to the point of distinct idea which is not what's coming across. It's almost to the point where Linus appears as an old man from pre civil rights days about things.
- simoncion 11y ago
  > When you program something correctly, it's expected to be correct to the keystroke. Are you saying that this is the philosophy Torvalds holds? If you are not, then please disregard the rest of this paragraph (and, if you have the time, please let me know what you did mean.). If you are, then I'mma slap a big [citation needed] on that comment. While searching for that citation, do keep in mind that writing code for OS kernel is usually going to require much more in-depth knowledge of how a compiler optimizes things and the like than writing code for some CRUD application. This means that -not infrequently- single-character errors do have substantial significance.
  - nickbauman 11y ago
    Uh, It sounds like we're in violent agreement? What I'm saying is that if you code it wrong it's completely wrong, even if it's only off by one keystroke. There's no guessing. Computers aren't flexible in interpreting what you're writing. I don't think this requires a citation from Torvalds. It's just a fact.
    - simoncion 11y ago
      > Uh, It sounds like we're in violent agreement? So we are! I -somehow- completely failed to understand the subtext in your statement. :( Mea maxima culpa. Please disregard my stupidity.
xkjkls 11y ago