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If you have a problem with someone's code, tell them about it, and be an adult about it. I've read Linus' numerous public outings of what he thinks are less tal

If you have a problem with someone's code, tell them about it, and be an adult about it. I've read Linus' numerous public outings of what he thinks are less talented developers, and it's childish, end of story. Nobody works well in that environment. It's a simple cost/benefit thing for me; the costs are you lose talented developers who may be more sensitive to criticism, which people like Linus say is a good thing because apparently the quality of your work is partially determined by your ability to handle assholes. The benefit side is you get to act like a child publicly and not be treated like one. The cost doesn't come close to justifying the benefit. In short: Linus and everyone like him need to grow up.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
bonzini 11y ago
> I've read Linus' numerous public outings of what he thinks are less talented developers He doesn't. He just thinks they're in the wrong _that one time_.
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  Does that make it better somehow?
  - Dru89 11y ago
    Does the difference between someone thinking that I'm wrong 100% of the time vs. being wrong at one particular incident make it better? Certainly. It's still rude and childish, but I'd certainly rather have a singular incident stomped on than my entire character tarnished.
    - FussyZeus 11y ago
      If he's going to treat you as shitty whether you made a single error after a long, long time of perfectly competent contributions or you write code that reads like you typed it with your face all the time, then I really don't think it makes a difference.
      - pm 11y ago
        The classic Linus tirades I've read are the result of the person he's addressing, who knows less about the project at hand, not accepting his reason for a particular decision he's made and continuing to press the issue. If you poke the bear, expect to get mauled.
        FussyZeus 11y ago
        He's not a bear, he's a person, and should be expected to act accordingly. I have coworkers I argue with on a regular basis and yes, things get spirited, that doesn't give you license to be an asshole.
        msandford 11y ago
        If someone makes repeated bad code contributions aren't they then actually hurting Linux rather than helping it by tying up a talented dev from being able to do actual useful work. Everyone has this idea that all patches are beautiful snowflakes and everyone's effort is just as good as everyone else's and such. But there's no reason to suspect that there aren't some un-talented people that want to work on the kernel and that they could waste a bunch of time by demanding that everyone explain why they're wrong, politely, and at length. Sometimes for volunteer projects to succeed, not everyone gets to participate. I think it's interesting that people who say "lived experience is the ultimate truth, full stop" then armchair quarterback another person's lived experience, without having lived it.
        FussyZeus 11y ago
        I'm not talking about polite, sweet n pretty, hey buddy let me help you out. I'm talking base line, standard, up front and direct as the subject requires and as something like kernel development most certainly does. However, you should be expected to be able to carry on a conversation that wouldn't be confused for a transcript of a 12 year old boy on XBox Live, calling people retards and morons. If you find code of mine that's shitty, great. Tell me about it. You can even come up to me and say "hey pal, your code here is shit." Fine. You call me names, or you attempt personal shots at me over it, we're done. This is true for me as a professional, and would be excessively extra true for open source. People contributing to linux are volunteering their time and talent to work on something they believe in, and quite frankly, that those efforts are met with attitudes like those expressed by Linus and Linux still having ANY contributors left is amazing. I don't care how much you believe that talking like an adult doesn't matter, I would bet every cent I had that if he were at least cordial, linux would be far ahead of where it is now.
tomp 11y ago
> In short: Linus and everyone like him need to grow up. Because telling someone to grow up is some very mature behavior.
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  Did you just not see the rest of the post? Or just chose to ignore it?
  - tomp 11y ago
    I chose to ignore it, but having read it now, I still think the same way. Just because some thinks differently than you, makes different trade-offs and has an unfamiliar way of behaving, doesn't mean they're childish.
    - FussyZeus 11y ago
      It's not unfamiliar or different, it's extremely familiar. Like when you get an answer wrong in class and one of the other kids goes "HA HA Dummy!" His intent is clearly not to help you learn something or to simply state you're wrong, his intent is to elevate himself at your expense. The word to describe this, among many other behaviors, is to act childish.
eertami 11y ago
Linus typically berates those he expects more from, but who have dropped the ball.
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  Who cares? What purpose does it solve? What end do we work towards by berating someone publicly instead of simply acknowledging the error and moving along with the fix? What is accomplished with public mocking that is accomplished with a professional note? There is one thing, and only one thing that is different; one gives into ego, one doesn't. I take ego out of my work because involving ego in work is the best way to ensure shitty work is done.
btilly 11y ago
I've read Linus' numerous public outings of what he thinks are less talented developers, and it's childish, end of story. Not the end of story. I've read many of the same articles. Carefully. And most of the time I've learned something good about software development. Not necessarily about how to express myself to co-workers. But about software development.
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  I've never once questioned his competence, he's clearly great at what he does. But you could be the best software dev on the planet, you act like that toward me, there isn't enough money on the planet to make me work with you. I'd sooner change careers.
  - asgard1024 11y ago
    Interesting. I guess it comes down to personal preference. Would you rather work with somebody exceptional but abrasive, as opposed to somebody average but nice? I think many people would choose the former. I think the reason exceptional people are abrasive is that they are primarily harsh to themselves, and that's the reason of their success. Being harsh to others is merely a side effect. And there are people like that in every profession, for example in modern magic Dai Vernon (one of the most respected magicians that ever lived), who was also infamous for being very critical to bad magicians.
    - FussyZeus 11y ago
      Abrasive and abusive are too very different things. Linus frequently slides into the latter. Abrasive, to me, means if you do something stupid you'll be called out and told what's wrong. Abusive is when that conversation turns into name calling. You can be as hard on yourself as you please, and we are often our own worst critic. When those complaints let fly to other ears, they should be phrased a little better. Again, your preference may vary. Me? I work with adults, I don't care how good the other kids are.
      - 11y ago
prodigal_erik 11y ago
>Nobody works well in that environment. Linux exists, so that can't be entirely true.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

bonzini 11y ago

> I've read Linus' numerous public outings of what he thinks are less talented developers He doesn't. He just thinks they're in the wrong _that one time_.

FussyZeus 11y ago
Does that make it better somehow?
- Dru89 11y ago
  Does the difference between someone thinking that I'm wrong 100% of the time vs. being wrong at one particular incident make it better? Certainly. It's still rude and childish, but I'd certainly rather have a singular incident stomped on than my entire character tarnished.
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    If he's going to treat you as shitty whether you made a single error after a long, long time of perfectly competent contributions or you write code that reads like you typed it with your face all the time, then I really don't think it makes a difference.
    - pm 11y ago
      The classic Linus tirades I've read are the result of the person he's addressing, who knows less about the project at hand, not accepting his reason for a particular decision he's made and continuing to press the issue. If you poke the bear, expect to get mauled.
      - FussyZeus 11y ago
        He's not a bear, he's a person, and should be expected to act accordingly. I have coworkers I argue with on a regular basis and yes, things get spirited, that doesn't give you license to be an asshole.
        msandford 11y ago
        If someone makes repeated bad code contributions aren't they then actually hurting Linux rather than helping it by tying up a talented dev from being able to do actual useful work. Everyone has this idea that all patches are beautiful snowflakes and everyone's effort is just as good as everyone else's and such. But there's no reason to suspect that there aren't some un-talented people that want to work on the kernel and that they could waste a bunch of time by demanding that everyone explain why they're wrong, politely, and at length. Sometimes for volunteer projects to succeed, not everyone gets to participate. I think it's interesting that people who say "lived experience is the ultimate truth, full stop" then armchair quarterback another person's lived experience, without having lived it.
        FussyZeus 11y ago
        I'm not talking about polite, sweet n pretty, hey buddy let me help you out. I'm talking base line, standard, up front and direct as the subject requires and as something like kernel development most certainly does. However, you should be expected to be able to carry on a conversation that wouldn't be confused for a transcript of a 12 year old boy on XBox Live, calling people retards and morons. If you find code of mine that's shitty, great. Tell me about it. You can even come up to me and say "hey pal, your code here is shit." Fine. You call me names, or you attempt personal shots at me over it, we're done. This is true for me as a professional, and would be excessively extra true for open source. People contributing to linux are volunteering their time and talent to work on something they believe in, and quite frankly, that those efforts are met with attitudes like those expressed by Linus and Linux still having ANY contributors left is amazing. I don't care how much you believe that talking like an adult doesn't matter, I would bet every cent I had that if he were at least cordial, linux would be far ahead of where it is now.

tomp 11y ago

> In short: Linus and everyone like him need to grow up. Because telling someone to grow up is some very mature behavior.

FussyZeus 11y ago
Did you just not see the rest of the post? Or just chose to ignore it?
- tomp 11y ago
  I chose to ignore it, but having read it now, I still think the same way. Just because some thinks differently than you, makes different trade-offs and has an unfamiliar way of behaving, doesn't mean they're childish.
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    It's not unfamiliar or different, it's extremely familiar. Like when you get an answer wrong in class and one of the other kids goes "HA HA Dummy!" His intent is clearly not to help you learn something or to simply state you're wrong, his intent is to elevate himself at your expense. The word to describe this, among many other behaviors, is to act childish.

eertami 11y ago

Linus typically berates those he expects more from, but who have dropped the ball.

FussyZeus 11y ago
Who cares? What purpose does it solve? What end do we work towards by berating someone publicly instead of simply acknowledging the error and moving along with the fix? What is accomplished with public mocking that is accomplished with a professional note? There is one thing, and only one thing that is different; one gives into ego, one doesn't. I take ego out of my work because involving ego in work is the best way to ensure shitty work is done.

btilly 11y ago

I've read Linus' numerous public outings of what he thinks are less talented developers, and it's childish, end of story. Not the end of story. I've read many of the same articles. Carefully. And most of the time I've learned something good about software development. Not necessarily about how to express myself to co-workers. But about software development.

FussyZeus 11y ago
I've never once questioned his competence, he's clearly great at what he does. But you could be the best software dev on the planet, you act like that toward me, there isn't enough money on the planet to make me work with you. I'd sooner change careers.
- asgard1024 11y ago
  Interesting. I guess it comes down to personal preference. Would you rather work with somebody exceptional but abrasive, as opposed to somebody average but nice? I think many people would choose the former. I think the reason exceptional people are abrasive is that they are primarily harsh to themselves, and that's the reason of their success. Being harsh to others is merely a side effect. And there are people like that in every profession, for example in modern magic Dai Vernon (one of the most respected magicians that ever lived), who was also infamous for being very critical to bad magicians.
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    Abrasive and abusive are too very different things. Linus frequently slides into the latter. Abrasive, to me, means if you do something stupid you'll be called out and told what's wrong. Abusive is when that conversation turns into name calling. You can be as hard on yourself as you please, and we are often our own worst critic. When those complaints let fly to other ears, they should be phrased a little better. Again, your preference may vary. Me? I work with adults, I don't care how good the other kids are.
    - 11y ago

prodigal_erik 11y ago

>Nobody works well in that environment. Linux exists, so that can't be entirely true.