6 ms·

The Immigration Iliad

34 points by benbreen 11y ago

bruceb 11y ago
How about an essay from some of the billions of people outside the US and managed somehow to go on with life without being in America.
- makmanalp 11y ago
  Really? Do we lack this much empathy? Parents came and stayed for whatever reason when the author was a minor. Author grew up and studied in the US. Author didn't decide to violate the law at the time, yet is considered at fault. Why should the author forego their life and any chance of seeing their family and friends, everyone they ever knew? But no, you just /have/ to go to "go live elsewhere".
  - WildUtah 11y ago
    Author decided to violate the law every day he stayed in the USA, especially after age 18. The Dominican Republic isn't a prison and author has family there and is a free, full adult citizen there. It's the author's mother he should be unhappy with.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      For all practical purposes, the author had become an American (indeed, it is all he knew) in all but formal documentation. There's really no danger of cultural incompatibility here. Your first sentence implies that minors are somehow allowed to make legal decisions.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        For some reason there will always be some that feel that the people should conform to the documentation rather than that the documentation should be adjust to best describe the people. I can't understand this mentality.
    - makmanalp 11y ago
      The author wouldn't have been violating the law currently if they hadn't been made to violate it a when they were a child, and didn't have the capability to understand the consequences. In your alternate universe, the author should have left their house, family, support structure, life, potential world-class education and moved to a place they have never known at 18 because goddamnit, they're an adult. In the US, we don't even trust 18 year olds to be responsible with liquor or rent cars. Again with the lack of empathy here.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      You have an interesting perspective on the life of the child of an illegal immigrant. Let's just say that we don't share that perspective and I wonder what your solution would be. Here where I live we have had a few cases of minors that were kicked out by our IND (the immigration and naturalization services) and believe me they don't have a spot in my heart. I'm writing this as the father of a child that was born in a country that declared him an illegal, even though the service was very much aware they manufactured this out of whole cloth. It took a year and a vast sum of money to get this situation corrected, but in the meantime he and his mother were deported. At least 'the system' works, I was able to sue the Queen and won, but it did leave a lasting scar on our family. This subject is still - 20+ years after the fact - very much an open wound to me and I always wonder what kind of person it would take to punish a child for the act of either one or both of their parents, even if it were true (which it was not). I think you just showed me a little bit of an answer for that question and for that I'm grateful even though I absolutely despise your position.
  - WizardlySquid 11y ago
    This has nothing to do with empathy. The author took advantage of systems built to help people and exploited systems built to help people for personal gain, screwing over everyone that follows the rules and not giving back to the system that has given him so much. Not only that but he was able to use the color of his skin to land himself a job in one of the most privileged fields at one of the most prestigious schools in the world. Really what's so wrong with living elsewhere? Dominican Republic has a high HDI and a decent economy. People move all the time, the author had no family in The United States and his mother probably had way more connections in the Dominican Republic than the US, it would certainly have been easier for her to find work in her country of origin too.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  If you'd like to submit a link to a different essay, feel free.
dunkelheit 11y ago
How is that possible - living in the country for years and even enrolling in a prominent institution of higher education, all the while being effectively non-existent as far as the legal system is concerned? I can't get my head around it.
- mrtksn 11y ago
  You are not non-existent, you are just taking another path where some things are "easier"(from locals perspective, it's usually easier to get a spot at a good school) to achieve they are actually much harder to hold because you are out of the safety net. Other things are incredibly laborious and some things are effectively out of your reach. From techie perspective, think of it as dirty and quick hack. You are basically quick fix at the system, you don't conform to predefined interfaces and you do not fell in any of the object categories but you still can interact with other objects. Because you don't go from all the checks, some things are easier to you and you can run faster but at the same time you are out of any error checking mechanism. If you fail, you fail dirty and you can't recover. So when you are an illegal in a country, you usually have access to some things like education and healthcare(sometimes easier than the locals) but you may have incredibly hard time to open a bank account and anything that depends on you having a bank account(the things that are easy and hard depend on the country). It all depends on what paperwork is needed, sometimes you hack your way to obtain certain paperwork(I know a guy who is taking the metro for free, so he would be fined and they will send him a mail with the fine and he will use that mail as proof of address to open a bank account). Being illegal in a country is very interesting beast. Some people, like the person with the most upvoted comment make it look lşke it's a privilege but it's not. Do you fancy to be an illegal? Burn your documents and pretend that you are somebody else.
  - dunkelheit 11y ago
    Interesting metaphor but I still don't fully understand. I imagine it is easy to go around doing ordinary cash transactions, hard but possible to find a place to live and work (you have to find landlords and employers who are willing to engage in sketchy things). But going to public school? enrolling in Princeton? Do these institutions seriously not care who you are? Also, if illegal immigrants are not non-existent to the state, why are they tolerated and not getting deported?
WildUtah 11y ago
tl;dr: Author's mom applied for a merciful visa for supposed medical treatment. She endangered all future applicants that actually need help by fraudulently using that visa to immigrate illegally. She subjected author to illegal status for years and years as he grew up. They were not eligible for refugee status because they were citizens of the DR, a perfectly nice country a few hours away on a plane. Author was privileged by his nationality with scholarships and racial preferences for admission to exclusive high schools and one of the world's best universities. He took spots that a US citizen was denied and that an American without that racial privilege would have had to achieve much higher grades and test scores to compete for. Author used that status to study a prestigious subject with very, very few practical job prospects. Author eventually hoped to take one of a very few professional spots available to Americans in that field funded by taxes American citizens pay and apparently found one. Following the rules is for suckers. People who have no respect for your country or its laws deserve its highest privileges more than the citizens that have to work to pay for them.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  I couldn't have exhibited more of a persecution complex if I tried.
- hartator 11y ago
  I don't remember him saying his mother doesn't have the condition and how do you know he was admited under racial quotas?
  - chrisbennet 11y ago
    It didn't and he doesn't but "haters gonna hate"...
- jacquesm 11y ago
  How many generations do you feel it takes before the sins of the parents are forgiven? Should grand-children of illegal immigrants be kicked out? Great-grandchildren? Did your great-great-grandparents ask the Native population of the United States for permission to enter or do you happen to be a member of one of the original tribes?
yueq 11y ago
Not being offensive here -- but how about imagine if the author is a terrorist, and this terrorist is studying in an Ivy and pretending to be a student.
- bonobo3000 11y ago
  You could ask the same question of any student, immigrant or not.
  - intortus 11y ago
    Imagine the commenter is a reactionary, pretending to not be offensive.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- hawkice 11y ago
  There are a lot of things to say about this (for instance, I'm not sure policies should be constructed based on the worst thing that could happen instead of the thing that probably will happen), but this leaps out at me: Why would a terrorist _pretend_ to be a student. Why not be an actual student? They aren't mutually exclusive, and it doesn't even feel like pretending would save a lot of time.
vaishaksuresh 11y ago
>But I have many feelings, not all of them charitable, about those who scream that undocumented immigrants are not law-abiding. I challenge these screamers to fill out the same paperwork I’ve had to fill out for the past few years and experience the same anxieties and fears I’ve felt. I’m sure they would wilt under the pressure With all due respect, the author's case is unique. The screamers are not talking about people like the author. Also, a perfectly legal immigrant from India/China goes to ivy league schools, does the same amount of paperwork and waits for the same time, all the while paying taxes like a citizen. You don't hear anybody helping their case.
- jacalata 11y ago
  How is it unique? It's the situation the DREAM act was supposed to address and plenty of screamers are about that.
  - vaishaksuresh 11y ago
    It is unique because his parents over-stayed a visa and not jump a fence. It is unique because the author actively tried to rectify his situation instead of just expecting to be handed a citizenship. Also, AFAIK, a lot more people are opposed to giving citizenship to every illegal immigrant than to giving it to people who qualify for the DREAMer act.
    - jacalata 11y ago
      A significant percentage of undocumented residents over-stayed a visa - perhaps 40%. You think the people spending years campaigning for the DREAM Act are just 'expecting to be handed a citizenship'? They're more involved politically than almost any American citizens are. There are a lot of people who've made huge efforts to get themselves legalized, and I think your comments are made out of complete ignorance and you should spend more time researching and less time spreading uninformed opinions.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
vonnik 11y ago
It should be Iliad with one 'l', as the author spelled it in the post.
- dang 11y ago
  Ugh. Hate missing those. Thanks.
aggieben 11y ago
> The attorney patiently explained to me that returning to Santo Domingo was far too risky. Because I’d overstayed my tourist visa as a child, I’d be subject to a ban on reentry; it was also extremely likely that I’d be denied a student visa. Well, why can't we just fix that, instead of completely ignoring the law for 20 million people (while in the meantime, millions more wait in line the legal way without the privileges that this guy's family took illegitimately)?

34 points by benbreen 11y ago

How about an essay from some of the billions of people outside the US and managed somehow to go on with life without being in America.

makmanalp 11y ago
Really? Do we lack this much empathy? Parents came and stayed for whatever reason when the author was a minor. Author grew up and studied in the US. Author didn't decide to violate the law at the time, yet is considered at fault. Why should the author forego their life and any chance of seeing their family and friends, everyone they ever knew? But no, you just /have/ to go to "go live elsewhere".
- WildUtah 11y ago
  Author decided to violate the law every day he stayed in the USA, especially after age 18. The Dominican Republic isn't a prison and author has family there and is a free, full adult citizen there. It's the author's mother he should be unhappy with.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    For all practical purposes, the author had become an American (indeed, it is all he knew) in all but formal documentation. There's really no danger of cultural incompatibility here. Your first sentence implies that minors are somehow allowed to make legal decisions.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      For some reason there will always be some that feel that the people should conform to the documentation rather than that the documentation should be adjust to best describe the people. I can't understand this mentality.
  - makmanalp 11y ago
    The author wouldn't have been violating the law currently if they hadn't been made to violate it a when they were a child, and didn't have the capability to understand the consequences. In your alternate universe, the author should have left their house, family, support structure, life, potential world-class education and moved to a place they have never known at 18 because goddamnit, they're an adult. In the US, we don't even trust 18 year olds to be responsible with liquor or rent cars. Again with the lack of empathy here.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    You have an interesting perspective on the life of the child of an illegal immigrant. Let's just say that we don't share that perspective and I wonder what your solution would be. Here where I live we have had a few cases of minors that were kicked out by our IND (the immigration and naturalization services) and believe me they don't have a spot in my heart. I'm writing this as the father of a child that was born in a country that declared him an illegal, even though the service was very much aware they manufactured this out of whole cloth. It took a year and a vast sum of money to get this situation corrected, but in the meantime he and his mother were deported. At least 'the system' works, I was able to sue the Queen and won, but it did leave a lasting scar on our family. This subject is still - 20+ years after the fact - very much an open wound to me and I always wonder what kind of person it would take to punish a child for the act of either one or both of their parents, even if it were true (which it was not). I think you just showed me a little bit of an answer for that question and for that I'm grateful even though I absolutely despise your position.
- WizardlySquid 11y ago
  This has nothing to do with empathy. The author took advantage of systems built to help people and exploited systems built to help people for personal gain, screwing over everyone that follows the rules and not giving back to the system that has given him so much. Not only that but he was able to use the color of his skin to land himself a job in one of the most privileged fields at one of the most prestigious schools in the world. Really what's so wrong with living elsewhere? Dominican Republic has a high HDI and a decent economy. People move all the time, the author had no family in The United States and his mother probably had way more connections in the Dominican Republic than the US, it would certainly have been easier for her to find work in her country of origin too.
dragonwriter 11y ago
If you'd like to submit a link to a different essay, feel free.

dunkelheit 11y ago

How is that possible - living in the country for years and even enrolling in a prominent institution of higher education, all the while being effectively non-existent as far as the legal system is concerned? I can't get my head around it.

mrtksn 11y ago
You are not non-existent, you are just taking another path where some things are "easier"(from locals perspective, it's usually easier to get a spot at a good school) to achieve they are actually much harder to hold because you are out of the safety net. Other things are incredibly laborious and some things are effectively out of your reach. From techie perspective, think of it as dirty and quick hack. You are basically quick fix at the system, you don't conform to predefined interfaces and you do not fell in any of the object categories but you still can interact with other objects. Because you don't go from all the checks, some things are easier to you and you can run faster but at the same time you are out of any error checking mechanism. If you fail, you fail dirty and you can't recover. So when you are an illegal in a country, you usually have access to some things like education and healthcare(sometimes easier than the locals) but you may have incredibly hard time to open a bank account and anything that depends on you having a bank account(the things that are easy and hard depend on the country). It all depends on what paperwork is needed, sometimes you hack your way to obtain certain paperwork(I know a guy who is taking the metro for free, so he would be fined and they will send him a mail with the fine and he will use that mail as proof of address to open a bank account). Being illegal in a country is very interesting beast. Some people, like the person with the most upvoted comment make it look lşke it's a privilege but it's not. Do you fancy to be an illegal? Burn your documents and pretend that you are somebody else.
- dunkelheit 11y ago
  Interesting metaphor but I still don't fully understand. I imagine it is easy to go around doing ordinary cash transactions, hard but possible to find a place to live and work (you have to find landlords and employers who are willing to engage in sketchy things). But going to public school? enrolling in Princeton? Do these institutions seriously not care who you are? Also, if illegal immigrants are not non-existent to the state, why are they tolerated and not getting deported?

WildUtah 11y ago

tl;dr: Author's mom applied for a merciful visa for supposed medical treatment. She endangered all future applicants that actually need help by fraudulently using that visa to immigrate illegally. She subjected author to illegal status for years and years as he grew up. They were not eligible for refugee status because they were citizens of the DR, a perfectly nice country a few hours away on a plane. Author was privileged by his nationality with scholarships and racial preferences for admission to exclusive high schools and one of the world's best universities. He took spots that a US citizen was denied and that an American without that racial privilege would have had to achieve much higher grades and test scores to compete for. Author used that status to study a prestigious subject with very, very few practical job prospects. Author eventually hoped to take one of a very few professional spots available to Americans in that field funded by taxes American citizens pay and apparently found one. Following the rules is for suckers. People who have no respect for your country or its laws deserve its highest privileges more than the citizens that have to work to pay for them.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
I couldn't have exhibited more of a persecution complex if I tried.
hartator 11y ago
I don't remember him saying his mother doesn't have the condition and how do you know he was admited under racial quotas?
- chrisbennet 11y ago
  It didn't and he doesn't but "haters gonna hate"...
jacquesm 11y ago
How many generations do you feel it takes before the sins of the parents are forgiven? Should grand-children of illegal immigrants be kicked out? Great-grandchildren? Did your great-great-grandparents ask the Native population of the United States for permission to enter or do you happen to be a member of one of the original tribes?

yueq 11y ago

Not being offensive here -- but how about imagine if the author is a terrorist, and this terrorist is studying in an Ivy and pretending to be a student.

bonobo3000 11y ago
You could ask the same question of any student, immigrant or not.
- intortus 11y ago
  Imagine the commenter is a reactionary, pretending to not be offensive.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
hawkice 11y ago
There are a lot of things to say about this (for instance, I'm not sure policies should be constructed based on the worst thing that could happen instead of the thing that probably will happen), but this leaps out at me: Why would a terrorist _pretend_ to be a student. Why not be an actual student? They aren't mutually exclusive, and it doesn't even feel like pretending would save a lot of time.

vaishaksuresh 11y ago

>But I have many feelings, not all of them charitable, about those who scream that undocumented immigrants are not law-abiding. I challenge these screamers to fill out the same paperwork I’ve had to fill out for the past few years and experience the same anxieties and fears I’ve felt. I’m sure they would wilt under the pressure With all due respect, the author's case is unique. The screamers are not talking about people like the author. Also, a perfectly legal immigrant from India/China goes to ivy league schools, does the same amount of paperwork and waits for the same time, all the while paying taxes like a citizen. You don't hear anybody helping their case.

jacalata 11y ago
How is it unique? It's the situation the DREAM act was supposed to address and plenty of screamers are about that.
- vaishaksuresh 11y ago
  It is unique because his parents over-stayed a visa and not jump a fence. It is unique because the author actively tried to rectify his situation instead of just expecting to be handed a citizenship. Also, AFAIK, a lot more people are opposed to giving citizenship to every illegal immigrant than to giving it to people who qualify for the DREAMer act.
  - jacalata 11y ago
    A significant percentage of undocumented residents over-stayed a visa - perhaps 40%. You think the people spending years campaigning for the DREAM Act are just 'expecting to be handed a citizenship'? They're more involved politically than almost any American citizens are. There are a lot of people who've made huge efforts to get themselves legalized, and I think your comments are made out of complete ignorance and you should spend more time researching and less time spreading uninformed opinions.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]

vonnik 11y ago

It should be Iliad with one 'l', as the author spelled it in the post.

dang 11y ago
Ugh. Hate missing those. Thanks.

aggieben 11y ago

> The attorney patiently explained to me that returning to Santo Domingo was far too risky. Because I’d overstayed my tourist visa as a child, I’d be subject to a ban on reentry; it was also extremely likely that I’d be denied a student visa. Well, why can't we just fix that, instead of completely ignoring the law for 20 million people (while in the meantime, millions more wait in line the legal way without the privileges that this guy's family took illegitimately)?