4 ms·

Read the linked Wikipedia article. Not sure what you're using it to reference "severely restricting access". Under the "Controversy" section, it seems to be re

by brwnll 11y ago

Read the linked Wikipedia article. Not sure what you're using it to reference "severely restricting access". Under the "Controversy" section, it seems to be referring to two topics: 1. Who owns the roads within the protected area. 2. That a planned Coal mine was prevented from happening in the now protected area. Care to elaborate?

davidw 11y ago
Small random point: you can take a rifle into a wilderness area. Or a horse. But not a mountain bike, to say nothing of something like an offroad motorcycle. I wouldn't want to see coal mines on land I enjoy using, and I don't ride dirt bikes, but I do love mountain biking. I can imagine other people have other recreational priorities. The US is a bit weird in how NIMBY it can get over stuff - or going overboard in how much it exploits some natural resources.
- smazga 11y ago
  > But not a mountain bike, to say nothing of something like an offroad motorcycle. Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. I visited my farmer family, and of course they have a bunch of 4 wheelers. We went on some expeditions to see petroglyphs and things miles into BLM land. Once the park is closed, that's no longer allowed. The locals often know the cool, secret things far off the beaten path. What annoyed my family in particular is that now they can't go enjoy those things in certain areas because someone a thousand miles away decides it should be so.
  - justinator 11y ago
    <em>The locals often know the cool, secret things far off the beaten path. What annoyed my family in particular is that now they can't go enjoy those things in certain areas because someone a thousand miles away decides it should be so. </em> Actually they can, just not on the 4WD Vehicles. They can, say: walk. The Antiquities Act was originally made to protect such things. So, job done, I guess.
    - davidw 11y ago
      > Actually they can, just not on the 4WD Vehicles. They can, say: walk. There are some pretty big distances in many places in the west. That's why people here rode horses rather than, say, walking, once upon a time. In the grand scheme of things, a few off road vehicles are probably not that bad. Something like a coal mine, OTOH, is going to permanently alter the landscape. I wish more policy were aimed at reasonable compromises rather than "no, everything must be absolutely pristine!" on one hand and "let's exploit the crap out of it!" on the other.
      - justinator 11y ago
        > There are some pretty big distances in many places in the west. Mountains, too. I know - I live there ;)
  - rch 11y ago
    My understanding is that you can't be more than 10 miles from a road anywhere in the US (other than AK). So what you're complaining about is a half-day walk that will probably help preserve those petroglyphs for decades.
    - davidw 11y ago
      Rather than making someone walk 20 miles (out and back!) across mostly boring, scrubby sagebrush under the hot sun, or through bitter cold, perhaps you route the ATV trails to within, say, 1km of the site. That's what I'm talking about WRT compromises...
    - greeneggs 11y ago
      That statistic is very wrong. Even in mainland California (no islands!), it's easy to beat 10 miles from a road. Googling suggests that in the continental US, the maximum straight-line distance from a road is 28 miles. The distance on foot could easily be two to four times that. It is hard to find a great source on this. However, here they list a number of places that are ~20 straight-line miles from the nearest road: http://remotefootprints.org/project-remote/expedition-journals http://remotefootprints.org/project-remote/expedition-journa...
      - username223 11y ago
        Cool site! To add a bit, straight-line distance is only one factor in remoteness. There are parts of Washington's Cascades that are only a few miles from a road, but would take a day or more of agonizing bush-whacking to reach.
      - rch 11y ago
        Here's the source that I was attempting to recall (I need to reread it myself): http://www.sciencemag.org/content/316/5825/736 http://www.sciencemag.org/content/316/5825/736 I can't find a link to back up 28 miles, but the site you referenced has two or three in the 17-22 mile range that look encouraging. I'm not certain that those numbers include forest roads in the measurement though; it might be just distance from public roads. The River of No Return Wilderness looks amazing - thanks!

by brwnll 11y ago

davidw 11y ago

Small random point: you can take a rifle into a wilderness area. Or a horse. But not a mountain bike, to say nothing of something like an offroad motorcycle. I wouldn't want to see coal mines on land I enjoy using, and I don't ride dirt bikes, but I do love mountain biking. I can imagine other people have other recreational priorities. The US is a bit weird in how NIMBY it can get over stuff - or going overboard in how much it exploits some natural resources.

smazga 11y ago
> But not a mountain bike, to say nothing of something like an offroad motorcycle. Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. I visited my farmer family, and of course they have a bunch of 4 wheelers. We went on some expeditions to see petroglyphs and things miles into BLM land. Once the park is closed, that's no longer allowed. The locals often know the cool, secret things far off the beaten path. What annoyed my family in particular is that now they can't go enjoy those things in certain areas because someone a thousand miles away decides it should be so.
- justinator 11y ago
  <em>The locals often know the cool, secret things far off the beaten path. What annoyed my family in particular is that now they can't go enjoy those things in certain areas because someone a thousand miles away decides it should be so. </em> Actually they can, just not on the 4WD Vehicles. They can, say: walk. The Antiquities Act was originally made to protect such things. So, job done, I guess.
  - davidw 11y ago
    > Actually they can, just not on the 4WD Vehicles. They can, say: walk. There are some pretty big distances in many places in the west. That's why people here rode horses rather than, say, walking, once upon a time. In the grand scheme of things, a few off road vehicles are probably not that bad. Something like a coal mine, OTOH, is going to permanently alter the landscape. I wish more policy were aimed at reasonable compromises rather than "no, everything must be absolutely pristine!" on one hand and "let's exploit the crap out of it!" on the other.
    - justinator 11y ago
      > There are some pretty big distances in many places in the west. Mountains, too. I know - I live there ;)
- rch 11y ago
  My understanding is that you can't be more than 10 miles from a road anywhere in the US (other than AK). So what you're complaining about is a half-day walk that will probably help preserve those petroglyphs for decades.
  - davidw 11y ago
    Rather than making someone walk 20 miles (out and back!) across mostly boring, scrubby sagebrush under the hot sun, or through bitter cold, perhaps you route the ATV trails to within, say, 1km of the site. That's what I'm talking about WRT compromises...
  - greeneggs 11y ago
    That statistic is very wrong. Even in mainland California (no islands!), it's easy to beat 10 miles from a road. Googling suggests that in the continental US, the maximum straight-line distance from a road is 28 miles. The distance on foot could easily be two to four times that. It is hard to find a great source on this. However, here they list a number of places that are ~20 straight-line miles from the nearest road: http://remotefootprints.org/project-remote/expedition-journals http://remotefootprints.org/project-remote/expedition-journa...
    - username223 11y ago
      Cool site! To add a bit, straight-line distance is only one factor in remoteness. There are parts of Washington's Cascades that are only a few miles from a road, but would take a day or more of agonizing bush-whacking to reach.
    - rch 11y ago
      Here's the source that I was attempting to recall (I need to reread it myself): http://www.sciencemag.org/content/316/5825/736 http://www.sciencemag.org/content/316/5825/736 I can't find a link to back up 28 miles, but the site you referenced has two or three in the 17-22 mile range that look encouraging. I'm not certain that those numbers include forest roads in the measurement though; it might be just distance from public roads. The River of No Return Wilderness looks amazing - thanks!