5 ms·

I sort of like this except startups typically pay below market salaries which is sort of against the spirit of the H1-B visa right? And if the startups aren't p

I sort of like this except startups typically pay below market salaries which is sort of against the spirit of the H1-B visa right? And if the startups aren't paying below market salaries then why do they need H1-Bs? Suppose I am an SF based startup and I get a candidate from triplebyte that is on H1-B and is paid 66k by a body shop as a Level 1 Computer Programmer [0] but she is obviously talented and got taken advantage of by the body shop. Is it legal/ethical for me to still pay her ~66k if it seems like she really should be a Level 4 Systems Software Developer[1] at 138k? [0] http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?code=15-1131&area=41884&year=16&source=1 http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?code=15-11... [1] http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?code=15-1133&area=41884&year=16&source=1 http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?code=15-11...

untog 11y ago
I sort of like this except startups typically pay below market salaries Do they? Ones that rely heavily on equity might (and I don't think you can count equity in such situations) but the tech sector is so full of money these days that I don't think developers are paid below market at all.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- negrit 11y ago
  You should not throw number like this out there. It's misleading and It's not how it works :)
padiyar83 11y ago
Its a myth that H1b visa employees are not paid in par with local employees and are hired solely to save/cut costs, you cannot make that allegation without data that shows the wage gap between H1 vs non H1 workers, keeping all other factors same. Yes some outsourcing companies do pay less, but that's not the industry norm, most companies that hire H1b visa holders as direct employees (as opposed to contracting them from outsourced firms) pay them on par with existing employees if not better.I am a H1b employee from past 7 years and I have always been paid the same as rest of the employees doing that kind of work and was hired for being best amongst those who interviewed for the position and not because I was any cheaper than the next guy who interviewed. PS: edited to correct a typo.
- djb_hackernews 11y ago
  I didn't make that allegation, but studies have shown that H1-Bs are underpaid compared to their peers [0][1][2](however I'm positive employers are paying them legally based on the prevailing wage data they've chosen to use to describe the visa holders skills). Plus in simple supply demand economics it's obvious, at least to me. [0] http://www.programmersguild.org/archives/howtounderpay.htm http://www.programmersguild.org/archives/howtounderpay.htm [1] http://cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages http://cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages [2] http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/the-bogus-high-tech-worker-sho/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/the-bogus-high-tech...
- finance-geek 11y ago
  A major reason my previous employer hired H1s was their inability to easily change jobs. This provided stability to the company. It also provided the H1 workers near-zero ability to quickly jump at opportunities, change jobs, negotiate salary, get raises or anything that typical free agents can do. You basically got to freeze someone's salary for 5 to 8 years.
lobster_johnson 11y ago
Paying below-market salaries is illegal. The visa has a minimum wage that is defined by your position (developer, designer, etc.). Edit: Of course, one could argue that the wage tables used by the government aren't "market".
- djb_hackernews 11y ago
  Right, but 66k is market rate according to the government for an SF based Level 1 Computer Programmer...
  - lsc 11y ago
    Even if that was fair for a level 1 computer programmer, (which it isn't) - part of your negotiation process is slotting you in to the title that pays what you want; I currently have the label SysAdmin, but you could easily call me a programmer, a systems engineer or a devops engineer, because my job role includes all those things. (As an aside, sysadmin is the lowest-paid of all of those titles, which suggests that I could get a raise by finding an employer willing to call my role something more expensive.)
    - djb_hackernews 11y ago
      To be honest I haven't heard of H1-B candidates negotiating what the prevailing wage will be on their LCA and I'd be surprised if even a handful of employers negotiated on that. But you made my point for me. Your employer could have put you at the higher pay scale but didn't and in fact put you on the lowest of several options. This is the way the system was designed to work.
      - lsc 11y ago
        I'm not disagreeing with you, I was pointing out that there is a lot of effort put into gaming what exactly "market rate" means for any job. A lot of effort put into preventing workers from knowing what other workers make even outside of any government program; It's an adversarial negotiation. The rule that H1B workers get paid the prevailing wage is... quite difficult to verify or enforce. My own (completely anecdotal and subjective) experience is that the H1B workers I've known well enough to exchange salary data were either way better than me technically, or they were getting paid way less than I was. My impression is that foreigners (esp. foreigners from lower cost-of-living countries) get paid less for the same skill.
outworlder 11y ago
Not sure if they are paying below market salaries. H-1B households are restricted to a single income. They could be paying below average market salaries, but 66k won't fly in the bay area. I haven't seen to many software engineers living under the bridges. Disclaimer: the single income restriction is why I fought to get a L-1 visa instead.
- odonnellryan 11y ago
  Can't people commute? I mean, certainly not everyone in the bay area makes > 70K a year.
  - s73v3r 11y ago
    Why would they want to do that?
- kirubakaran 11y ago
  "H-1B households are restricted to a single income" This isn't true anymore http://www.immihelp.com/h4-visa-ead/ http://www.immihelp.com/h4-visa-ead/
  - edudar 11y ago
    Still true. H4 EAD falls into very specific categories, both are listed by the link. Either post I-140 which is 2/3 to a GC or beyond 6 years which is quite specific.
  - ojbyrne 11y ago
    Also, there are couples where both are on H-1B or other visas.
  - vaishaksuresh 11y ago
    Yup, but with a big caveat. Not everybody on H4 qualifies for an EAD. The H1B holder should have gotten his or her i40 application approved. So OP's comment still is very much valid.
- 11y ago

untog 11y ago

I sort of like this except startups typically pay below market salaries Do they? Ones that rely heavily on equity might (and I don't think you can count equity in such situations) but the tech sector is so full of money these days that I don't think developers are paid below market at all.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

negrit 11y ago
You should not throw number like this out there. It's misleading and It's not how it works :)

padiyar83 11y ago

Its a myth that H1b visa employees are not paid in par with local employees and are hired solely to save/cut costs, you cannot make that allegation without data that shows the wage gap between H1 vs non H1 workers, keeping all other factors same. Yes some outsourcing companies do pay less, but that's not the industry norm, most companies that hire H1b visa holders as direct employees (as opposed to contracting them from outsourced firms) pay them on par with existing employees if not better.I am a H1b employee from past 7 years and I have always been paid the same as rest of the employees doing that kind of work and was hired for being best amongst those who interviewed for the position and not because I was any cheaper than the next guy who interviewed. PS: edited to correct a typo.

djb_hackernews 11y ago
I didn't make that allegation, but studies have shown that H1-Bs are underpaid compared to their peers [0][1][2](however I'm positive employers are paying them legally based on the prevailing wage data they've chosen to use to describe the visa holders skills). Plus in simple supply demand economics it's obvious, at least to me. [0] http://www.programmersguild.org/archives/howtounderpay.htm http://www.programmersguild.org/archives/howtounderpay.htm [1] http://cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages http://cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages [2] http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/the-bogus-high-tech-worker-sho/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/the-bogus-high-tech...
finance-geek 11y ago
A major reason my previous employer hired H1s was their inability to easily change jobs. This provided stability to the company. It also provided the H1 workers near-zero ability to quickly jump at opportunities, change jobs, negotiate salary, get raises or anything that typical free agents can do. You basically got to freeze someone's salary for 5 to 8 years.

lobster_johnson 11y ago

Paying below-market salaries is illegal. The visa has a minimum wage that is defined by your position (developer, designer, etc.). Edit: Of course, one could argue that the wage tables used by the government aren't "market".

djb_hackernews 11y ago
Right, but 66k is market rate according to the government for an SF based Level 1 Computer Programmer...
- lsc 11y ago
  Even if that was fair for a level 1 computer programmer, (which it isn't) - part of your negotiation process is slotting you in to the title that pays what you want; I currently have the label SysAdmin, but you could easily call me a programmer, a systems engineer or a devops engineer, because my job role includes all those things. (As an aside, sysadmin is the lowest-paid of all of those titles, which suggests that I could get a raise by finding an employer willing to call my role something more expensive.)
  - djb_hackernews 11y ago
    To be honest I haven't heard of H1-B candidates negotiating what the prevailing wage will be on their LCA and I'd be surprised if even a handful of employers negotiated on that. But you made my point for me. Your employer could have put you at the higher pay scale but didn't and in fact put you on the lowest of several options. This is the way the system was designed to work.
    - lsc 11y ago
      I'm not disagreeing with you, I was pointing out that there is a lot of effort put into gaming what exactly "market rate" means for any job. A lot of effort put into preventing workers from knowing what other workers make even outside of any government program; It's an adversarial negotiation. The rule that H1B workers get paid the prevailing wage is... quite difficult to verify or enforce. My own (completely anecdotal and subjective) experience is that the H1B workers I've known well enough to exchange salary data were either way better than me technically, or they were getting paid way less than I was. My impression is that foreigners (esp. foreigners from lower cost-of-living countries) get paid less for the same skill.

outworlder 11y ago

Not sure if they are paying below market salaries. H-1B households are restricted to a single income. They could be paying below average market salaries, but 66k won't fly in the bay area. I haven't seen to many software engineers living under the bridges. Disclaimer: the single income restriction is why I fought to get a L-1 visa instead.

odonnellryan 11y ago
Can't people commute? I mean, certainly not everyone in the bay area makes > 70K a year.
- s73v3r 11y ago
  Why would they want to do that?
kirubakaran 11y ago
"H-1B households are restricted to a single income" This isn't true anymore http://www.immihelp.com/h4-visa-ead/ http://www.immihelp.com/h4-visa-ead/
- edudar 11y ago
  Still true. H4 EAD falls into very specific categories, both are listed by the link. Either post I-140 which is 2/3 to a GC or beyond 6 years which is quite specific.
- ojbyrne 11y ago
  Also, there are couples where both are on H-1B or other visas.
- vaishaksuresh 11y ago
  Yup, but with a big caveat. Not everybody on H4 qualifies for an EAD. The H1B holder should have gotten his or her i40 application approved. So OP's comment still is very much valid.
11y ago