5 ms·

Bloat and jankyness seems to be a function of project age. This is a relatively greenfield project, so it's pretty nice for now. MS Office is ancient as far a

by mahyarm 11y ago

Bloat and jankyness seems to be a function of project age. This is a relatively greenfield project, so it's pretty nice for now. MS Office is ancient as far as software projects go. The only things that are older at this point is UNIX, Oracle bank/govt mainframes.

MaxKK 11y ago
You checked the latest Office 2015? I think it improved quite a bit, at least on OSX.
- Cyph0n 11y ago
  Office 2016. It's absolutely awesome. As native as it gets IMO. It's clear MS is treating OS X with respect. I used to have Office 2013 installed on a Windows VM because 2011 on Mac was garbage.
- mahyarm 11y ago
  How nice the surface doesn't say anything about the internals, developer experience or the crazy shit they do for backwards compatibility.
Scuds 11y ago
By going to VS Code they're jettisoning themselves from the .sln (solution file), .csproj (C# project file), MS Build world. Project management and build files are being pushed into external utilities. This is kind of the way a lot of the rest the world (ruby/node/python) is going. IDEs are fine, but when you remove the need for an integrated debugger in favor of TDD the need for an IDE diminishes.
- endgame 11y ago
  I would hardly say that TDD removes the need for an integrated debugger. Being able to inspect the state of a system the instant a test fails sounds mighty useful to me. Also, software builds being driven by an external tool has been common since at least make(1), so it's hardly a ruby/node/python thing.
  - marktangotango 11y ago
    I've been the new guy on teams that did not use the ide for debugging (insanity in the Java world, right?) and was perceived to be a super star because of my ability to trouble shoot and drill straight down to root causes. Learn and use your tools people!
- pbz 11y ago
  But VS Code does have integrated debugging...
coldtea 11y ago
>Bloat and jankyness seems to be a function of project age. Atom, that he mentioned, as well as lots of other projects, were slow and bloated from the start.
- mahyarm 11y ago
  That's why I worry about atom in 10 years from now...
btilly 11y ago
Ancient?? I think you don't know the history. MS Office started in 1990. Current technologies that are older include... - Unix and most of its tool system (including emacs, vi, grep, awk, tar, X-windows, etc) - Most fundamental networking technologies (tcp-ip, ftp, email, etc) - Several game franchises including Mario, Final Fantasy, Frogger, SimCity, Wolfenstein (you'll be more likely to recognize its descendants Doom and Quake) - Many popular relational databases. Whether you use MS SQL, PostgreSQL, Oracle, those are built on code bases that have been continuously developed from before 1990. (Albeit with name changes. MS SQL started with Sybase's code, PostgreSQL was developed from Ingress.) - Around half of the top 20 programming languages in use today, including languages such as C, C++, Python and Objective-C. There is a LOT more history to the software you use every day than you recognize!
- mahyarm 11y ago
  I'm talking more codebase wise, not protocols, languages, specifications and franchises. For example, Wii U mario games aren't using code from the original 8bit mario games. Same with most SMTP servers today. SMTP is old, the current implementations in use most of the time are not that old. I think many unix tools in use today like grep are probably not using the original grep implementations either. So I covered most of the list with UNIX (OSes), Oracle (DBs) and mainframes. I did miss compilers, vim & emacs but even that is being replaced by guys like LLVM.

by mahyarm 11y ago

MaxKK 11y ago

You checked the latest Office 2015? I think it improved quite a bit, at least on OSX.

Cyph0n 11y ago
Office 2016. It's absolutely awesome. As native as it gets IMO. It's clear MS is treating OS X with respect. I used to have Office 2013 installed on a Windows VM because 2011 on Mac was garbage.
mahyarm 11y ago
How nice the surface doesn't say anything about the internals, developer experience or the crazy shit they do for backwards compatibility.

Scuds 11y ago

By going to VS Code they're jettisoning themselves from the .sln (solution file), .csproj (C# project file), MS Build world. Project management and build files are being pushed into external utilities. This is kind of the way a lot of the rest the world (ruby/node/python) is going. IDEs are fine, but when you remove the need for an integrated debugger in favor of TDD the need for an IDE diminishes.

endgame 11y ago
I would hardly say that TDD removes the need for an integrated debugger. Being able to inspect the state of a system the instant a test fails sounds mighty useful to me. Also, software builds being driven by an external tool has been common since at least make(1), so it's hardly a ruby/node/python thing.
- marktangotango 11y ago
  I've been the new guy on teams that did not use the ide for debugging (insanity in the Java world, right?) and was perceived to be a super star because of my ability to trouble shoot and drill straight down to root causes. Learn and use your tools people!
pbz 11y ago
But VS Code does have integrated debugging...

coldtea 11y ago

>Bloat and jankyness seems to be a function of project age. Atom, that he mentioned, as well as lots of other projects, were slow and bloated from the start.

mahyarm 11y ago
That's why I worry about atom in 10 years from now...

btilly 11y ago

Ancient?? I think you don't know the history. MS Office started in 1990. Current technologies that are older include... - Unix and most of its tool system (including emacs, vi, grep, awk, tar, X-windows, etc) - Most fundamental networking technologies (tcp-ip, ftp, email, etc) - Several game franchises including Mario, Final Fantasy, Frogger, SimCity, Wolfenstein (you'll be more likely to recognize its descendants Doom and Quake) - Many popular relational databases. Whether you use MS SQL, PostgreSQL, Oracle, those are built on code bases that have been continuously developed from before 1990. (Albeit with name changes. MS SQL started with Sybase's code, PostgreSQL was developed from Ingress.) - Around half of the top 20 programming languages in use today, including languages such as C, C++, Python and Objective-C. There is a LOT more history to the software you use every day than you recognize!

mahyarm 11y ago
I'm talking more codebase wise, not protocols, languages, specifications and franchises. For example, Wii U mario games aren't using code from the original 8bit mario games. Same with most SMTP servers today. SMTP is old, the current implementations in use most of the time are not that old. I think many unix tools in use today like grep are probably not using the original grep implementations either. So I covered most of the list with UNIX (OSes), Oracle (DBs) and mainframes. I did miss compilers, vim & emacs but even that is being replaced by guys like LLVM.