4 ms·

As someone who has spent years building software on top of compiled android binaries, as in, adding features to apps with nothing more than the APK (no source c

by seibelj 11y ago

As someone who has spent years building software on top of compiled android binaries, as in, adding features to apps with nothing more than the APK (no source code), I can say that what they are building is not only difficult but quite fragile. I have the benefit of customers who agree to certain OS versions and specific app versions. MS wants it to work universally with every app. It's possible to get it close enough that getting any single app to work is a few tweaks, but very hard to get it to the last mile, where every app "just works".

Scramblejams 11y ago
Sounds interesting, can you tell us more?
kelvin0 11y ago
Why don't you have access to your customer's source code? Is this done through decompiling Java Bytecode? What kind of modifications are we talking about (cosmetic, functionality)? Really really curious about your feedback!
- seibelj 11y ago
  My current company, Apperian, is the industry leader in a technology called "App Wrapping", for which we have several patents pending (I'm only there for another week, I'm leaving after nearly 6 years for a new adventure). Read more here: https://www.apperian.com/mobile-application-management/mobile-app-wrapping/ https://www.apperian.com/mobile-application-management/mobil... iOS is different, but on Android we run the decompiled binaries through software making heavy use of finite state machines to alter the Dalvik VM code. These alterations allow us to automatically add features like SSO, analytics, security, self-updating apps, etc. to native apps without the customers making any code changes. Because the binaries are provided to us by customers, and distributed 100% outside of the official App Stores, the risk of app-breaking updates is much reduced. Over the years the technology has matured a great amount, and most apps "just work", but we still get apps that have some edge case we didn't think of, that requires manual intervention by engineering to update the wrapping software. Now, the use-case that MS has is different from Apperian's, but similar enough that I can imagine what they are going through, especially trying to re-map the UI elements to native MS widgets. This is a hard problem that is difficult to nail seamlessly, and it is infeasible for them to tweak their code for every app. Even worse, the apps people want most (FB / Messenger, Google Maps, etc.) are the most complex of all, so their tech needs to be super advanced to get value out of it.
  - pavlov 11y ago
    I don't think Microsoft's Astoria even tried to map Android UI elements to native Windows widgets. In my experience, the look and feel is more like a Windows-styled theme for Android. (That sounds pretty bad, but actually Windows 10 Mobile has pretty much broken the tight Windows Phone 7/8 look&feel anyway, so it's not such a big deal for the bridged Android apps.) They do map some of the Google Play services to their MS equivalents, and that's certainly a big can of worms on its own.
    - hackuser 11y ago
      From the article, quoting Microsoft's director of OSG John Justice: “We are windowizing all the most important experiences…we recreated controls, interactions, and user experiences to match the Windows user experience (UX) to eliminate any clashes of interface concepts,”
frik 11y ago
Possible, but it's a usual Microsoft tactics to announce a product years in advance and never deliver (vamporware).
- chadzawistowski 11y ago
  That did happen back in the 90s, yes. What's the tactical strategy behind Astoria being vaporware?
  - pavlov 11y ago
    It's not vaporware. It's been available in a semi-closed beta for months to 3rd parties and works pretty well.
    - frik 11y ago
      Like WinFS. Vaporware means a lot of PR for a product that was never shipped in the end. Microsoft's strategy since it's early days is based on vaporware, even Windows 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

by seibelj 11y ago

Scramblejams 11y ago

Sounds interesting, can you tell us more?

kelvin0 11y ago

Why don't you have access to your customer's source code? Is this done through decompiling Java Bytecode? What kind of modifications are we talking about (cosmetic, functionality)? Really really curious about your feedback!

seibelj 11y ago
My current company, Apperian, is the industry leader in a technology called "App Wrapping", for which we have several patents pending (I'm only there for another week, I'm leaving after nearly 6 years for a new adventure). Read more here: https://www.apperian.com/mobile-application-management/mobile-app-wrapping/ https://www.apperian.com/mobile-application-management/mobil... iOS is different, but on Android we run the decompiled binaries through software making heavy use of finite state machines to alter the Dalvik VM code. These alterations allow us to automatically add features like SSO, analytics, security, self-updating apps, etc. to native apps without the customers making any code changes. Because the binaries are provided to us by customers, and distributed 100% outside of the official App Stores, the risk of app-breaking updates is much reduced. Over the years the technology has matured a great amount, and most apps "just work", but we still get apps that have some edge case we didn't think of, that requires manual intervention by engineering to update the wrapping software. Now, the use-case that MS has is different from Apperian's, but similar enough that I can imagine what they are going through, especially trying to re-map the UI elements to native MS widgets. This is a hard problem that is difficult to nail seamlessly, and it is infeasible for them to tweak their code for every app. Even worse, the apps people want most (FB / Messenger, Google Maps, etc.) are the most complex of all, so their tech needs to be super advanced to get value out of it.
- pavlov 11y ago
  I don't think Microsoft's Astoria even tried to map Android UI elements to native Windows widgets. In my experience, the look and feel is more like a Windows-styled theme for Android. (That sounds pretty bad, but actually Windows 10 Mobile has pretty much broken the tight Windows Phone 7/8 look&feel anyway, so it's not such a big deal for the bridged Android apps.) They do map some of the Google Play services to their MS equivalents, and that's certainly a big can of worms on its own.
  - hackuser 11y ago
    From the article, quoting Microsoft's director of OSG John Justice: “We are windowizing all the most important experiences…we recreated controls, interactions, and user experiences to match the Windows user experience (UX) to eliminate any clashes of interface concepts,”

frik 11y ago

Possible, but it's a usual Microsoft tactics to announce a product years in advance and never deliver (vamporware).

chadzawistowski 11y ago
That did happen back in the 90s, yes. What's the tactical strategy behind Astoria being vaporware?
- pavlov 11y ago
  It's not vaporware. It's been available in a semi-closed beta for months to 3rd parties and works pretty well.
  - frik 11y ago
    Like WinFS. Vaporware means a lot of PR for a product that was never shipped in the end. Microsoft's strategy since it's early days is based on vaporware, even Windows 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware