6 ms·

Early 20th Century Technocracy Movement

29 points by benbreen 11y ago

ap46 11y ago
Was pondering over this myself. You go to the dentist for your oral health. You ask a civil engineer to build your home. You have a teacher to teach your kids. So you need people with knowledge to run your country as well.
- vox_mollis 11y ago
  Say what you want about monarchies and the aristocracy, but they were bred, educated, and raised specifically to govern, and had a vested interest in governing well -- lest they and their progeny be eliminated violently by the governed.
  - steve19 11y ago
    the problem is all to often they stop trying to govern and instead spent their time preventing any chance of revolt (see North Korea, the last Kings of France)
  - jqm 11y ago
    The problem with that idea is that there wasn't an orderly way to replace rulers when they ceased to govern effectively. So you might get one good king then a string of bad ones. Example: Marcus Aurelius and his son Commodus. Being bred and raised to govern isn't a good thing in some people. It gives them a sense of entitlement that makes them ineffective. Far better people should have to try out for the position. Which is of course how many dynasties originally begin. Democracy kind of sucks in ways, but it mostly works better than government by "specialists". Really I can't wait for government by machine. I have to suppose it's inevitable given time.
    - vox_mollis 11y ago
      The problem with that idea is that there wasn't an orderly way to replace rulers when they ceased to govern effectively Fair point, but it's not unheard of. Pepin the Short is probably the most famous example of how it could happen.
    - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
      > Really I can't wait for government by machine. It's the same problem. What if you get a bad machine?
- AdeptusAquinas 11y ago
  Yes. However the sad fact is (sad at least if you dont like politicians) that politicians ARE the knowledge class for ruling. Technocratic views always seem to me to be a variant of the 'old physicist' problem (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2556); http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2556); that is, smart people in a given field wrongly assuming they are just generally smart, rather than specifically.
wmf 11y ago
AFAIK China is trying a similar approach right now.
Detrus 11y ago
Soviet Union tried to do this through 1960's computers, surveys and experts. Adam Curtis "documentary" is the extent of my knowledge on their attempts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3gwyHNo7MI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3gwyHNo7MI It's a monumental complex systems problem. Besides the 1960's computers the Soviets were hampered by their utilitarian ideology that didn't take home decor into consideration.
- Animats 11y ago
  Today, Wal-Mart runs a centralized economy bigger than Soviet consumer production in the 1970s. It's all run out of Bentonville, Arkansas. Wal-Mart is so centralized that the thermostats in the stores are controlled from Bentonville. Purchasing is centralized in Bentonville. Store managers don't determine what they sell. The Soviet GOSPLAN planning cycle was just too slow. They had an annual planning cycle and a monthly information cycle. Wal-Mart has a weekly planning cycle and a daily information cycle. China has a national 5-year plan. Here's an analysis of the last 5-year plan (2011-2015) by a US consulting firm.[1] [1] http://www.kpmg.com/CN/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublications/Publicationseries/5-years-plan/Documents/China-12th-Five-Year-Plan-Overview-201104.pdf http://www.kpmg.com/CN/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublicat...
  - wmf 11y ago
    Presumably much of the information in Wal-Mart's daily cycle is feedback from the market in which Wal-Mart participates. Would central planning work as well in a "closed" system?
  - DanielBMarkham 11y ago
    Wal-Mart doe not run a centralized economy. It runs a business that buys items for one price in one location, then sells them at another price in another. Running an economy is a political affair. People can decide not to go to Wal-Mart; they cannot as easily decide not to be a citizen. Quite frankly, a large majority of the horrors of the 20th century were due to folks thinking "Oh, I understand where we went wrong this last time with our centralized planning. This time will be much better!" There's a ton of reasons for this -- enough to put in a book. Or several books. And those books are out there if you are interested in them. A related question is this: can you run just a simple store like Wal-Mart through a technocracy? You probably can to a certain degree, then it falls apart. The more you can automate, of course, the less actual value you are creating. Software continues to eat the world. But no, feedback cycle time is not the issue. Not even close.
masterCat 11y ago
See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropa
masterCat 11y ago
See also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropa
joepvd 11y ago
Alwayhs thought this was a nice depiction, I am guessing it comes from the same time: http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0e8cy88A01qzcdwho1_1280.jpg http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0e8cy88A01qzcdwho1_1280.j...

29 points by benbreen 11y ago

ap46 11y ago

Was pondering over this myself. You go to the dentist for your oral health. You ask a civil engineer to build your home. You have a teacher to teach your kids. So you need people with knowledge to run your country as well.

vox_mollis 11y ago
Say what you want about monarchies and the aristocracy, but they were bred, educated, and raised specifically to govern, and had a vested interest in governing well -- lest they and their progeny be eliminated violently by the governed.
- steve19 11y ago
  the problem is all to often they stop trying to govern and instead spent their time preventing any chance of revolt (see North Korea, the last Kings of France)
- jqm 11y ago
  The problem with that idea is that there wasn't an orderly way to replace rulers when they ceased to govern effectively. So you might get one good king then a string of bad ones. Example: Marcus Aurelius and his son Commodus. Being bred and raised to govern isn't a good thing in some people. It gives them a sense of entitlement that makes them ineffective. Far better people should have to try out for the position. Which is of course how many dynasties originally begin. Democracy kind of sucks in ways, but it mostly works better than government by "specialists". Really I can't wait for government by machine. I have to suppose it's inevitable given time.
  - vox_mollis 11y ago
    The problem with that idea is that there wasn't an orderly way to replace rulers when they ceased to govern effectively Fair point, but it's not unheard of. Pepin the Short is probably the most famous example of how it could happen.
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    > Really I can't wait for government by machine. It's the same problem. What if you get a bad machine?
AdeptusAquinas 11y ago
Yes. However the sad fact is (sad at least if you dont like politicians) that politicians ARE the knowledge class for ruling. Technocratic views always seem to me to be a variant of the 'old physicist' problem (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2556); http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2556); that is, smart people in a given field wrongly assuming they are just generally smart, rather than specifically.

wmf 11y ago

AFAIK China is trying a similar approach right now.

Detrus 11y ago

Soviet Union tried to do this through 1960's computers, surveys and experts. Adam Curtis "documentary" is the extent of my knowledge on their attempts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3gwyHNo7MI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3gwyHNo7MI It's a monumental complex systems problem. Besides the 1960's computers the Soviets were hampered by their utilitarian ideology that didn't take home decor into consideration.

Animats 11y ago
Today, Wal-Mart runs a centralized economy bigger than Soviet consumer production in the 1970s. It's all run out of Bentonville, Arkansas. Wal-Mart is so centralized that the thermostats in the stores are controlled from Bentonville. Purchasing is centralized in Bentonville. Store managers don't determine what they sell. The Soviet GOSPLAN planning cycle was just too slow. They had an annual planning cycle and a monthly information cycle. Wal-Mart has a weekly planning cycle and a daily information cycle. China has a national 5-year plan. Here's an analysis of the last 5-year plan (2011-2015) by a US consulting firm.[1] [1] http://www.kpmg.com/CN/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublications/Publicationseries/5-years-plan/Documents/China-12th-Five-Year-Plan-Overview-201104.pdf http://www.kpmg.com/CN/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublicat...
- wmf 11y ago
  Presumably much of the information in Wal-Mart's daily cycle is feedback from the market in which Wal-Mart participates. Would central planning work as well in a "closed" system?
- DanielBMarkham 11y ago
  Wal-Mart doe not run a centralized economy. It runs a business that buys items for one price in one location, then sells them at another price in another. Running an economy is a political affair. People can decide not to go to Wal-Mart; they cannot as easily decide not to be a citizen. Quite frankly, a large majority of the horrors of the 20th century were due to folks thinking "Oh, I understand where we went wrong this last time with our centralized planning. This time will be much better!" There's a ton of reasons for this -- enough to put in a book. Or several books. And those books are out there if you are interested in them. A related question is this: can you run just a simple store like Wal-Mart through a technocracy? You probably can to a certain degree, then it falls apart. The more you can automate, of course, the less actual value you are creating. Software continues to eat the world. But no, feedback cycle time is not the issue. Not even close.

masterCat 11y ago

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropa

masterCat 11y ago

See also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropa

joepvd 11y ago

Alwayhs thought this was a nice depiction, I am guessing it comes from the same time: http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0e8cy88A01qzcdwho1_1280.jpg http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0e8cy88A01qzcdwho1_1280.j...