4 ms·

Midori was Microsoft's version of DEC's "No output division". They basically shepherded all the super senior people there to fool around with shit and not imped

by melted 11y ago

Midori was Microsoft's version of DEC's "No output division". They basically shepherded all the super senior people there to fool around with shit and not impede progress elsewhere. No real product was ever expected.

vog 11y ago
That's a very interesting theory. It sounds plausible. However, do you have any sources to back this up?
- zakalwe2000 11y ago
  that was my impression of it as well, a very senior employee retention scheme.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- melted 11y ago
  No sources per se, other than a few people I know who worked there. Of course this wasn't the official party line, but it wasn't that hard to deduce.
AYBABTME 11y ago
I'm curious why they keep the super senior people if all they can do is: - Produce no output in a no output division, or - Impede progress elsewhere. Obviously I'm missing some part of the argument, can you elaborate?
- peterkelly 11y ago
  It's so those people who can do research, the goal of which is not necessarily producing "output" in the form of products (what I assume GP was referring to), but to experiment with new ideas and learn lessons that can subsequently be applied to new products. Microsoft's research division is one of the best in the industry: http://research.microsoft.com http://research.microsoft.com
- melted 11y ago
  Easy: - some of those senior employees are senior for a good reason, and they could do a ton of damage if you piss them off and they go to a competitor - some of the stuff they fool around with may end up being useful elsewhere, which it did, in some cases - and in the unlikely event that a usable product is produced, the company wins as well It's a win-win-win, no matter how you slice it.
  - snaky 11y ago
    So they "may end up being useful" to degree "could do a ton of damage if they go to a competitor". That's not very similar to "produce no output" as you said before. And what is the reason why they could only "impede progress" here and "being useful" there?
    - melted 11y ago
      Very senior people are best used sparingly. Put too many of them on a real project and pit them against each other (as the old MSFT performance review process tended to do), and they start beating their chest and trying to backstab the other people they're competing with. OTOH if you put them in research and tell them how super important their project is and how it's advancing the state of the art and stuff, and you might get a few years of reprieve.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  DEC had an explicit "never fire anyone if you can possibly avoid it" culture. There were no significant lay-offs until the last few years. You might think that's insane, but it created a lot of loyalty. And I'm not sure it's any less sane than the current religion of cutting head counts at the first downturn in profitability, losing all the good people (because they'll be the first through the exits), and crushing the morale of the rest - never mind other popular stupidities like off-shoring to countries that don't speak English, or hiring back fired employees for vastly more money as contractors, because they're the only ones who can make stuff work. Meanwhile I keep wondering if MS should reinvent itself as a straight R&D company. The research and blue sky side regularly does supercool stuff. The management, strategy, and customer satisfaction cadres - maybe not so great, actually.
  - snaky 11y ago
    That's not insane at all if the company have thoughtful hiring policy (no HR involved, reasonable trial period) and stable enough line of products.
  - sinhpham 11y ago
    They had a net income of $4.62 billion last quarter, how is that "not so great"? http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/23/us-microsoft-results-idUSKCN0SG2M520151023#oAperPSST3TXZy1t.97 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/23/us-microsoft-resul...
    - kagamine 11y ago
      He didn't say they don't make money, he said they don't do supercool stuff. Money is supercool stuff too, but not in the same way.
      - sinhpham 11y ago
        What other cool stuff can "management, strategy, and customer satisfaction cadres" even do? And if just because "management, strategy, and customer satisfaction cadres" is not doing "supercool stuff" (whatever it means), the company should focus on R&D, then the vast majority of companies should cease to exist. Like it or not, companies are here to make money. Saying MS should reinvent itself to be a R&D company is like saying Toyota should stop making cars because their normal cars aren't running by water, auto driven, and charged by solar panels yet. Ya, what's the point? Use your money to research on energy, AI and what not. Never mind where that money comes from. When I read these absurd statements I think the author is either trolling, has an agenda, or is living in a bubble.
nimish 11y ago
Iirc certain bits of it eventually found their way into shipping products I think they actually did have a working os that could play media and do other things but it's unclear what the broader goal was other than pushing the boundaries on systems development Some of the design documents were really a joy to read. Very smart and thoughtful people.
agwa 11y ago
Except that Microsoft hired people out of college to work on Midori, which they surely wouldn't have done if Midori was simply a place to dump the people they couldn't/wouldn't fire, which was the point of DEC's "No output division"[1]. [1] http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/DEC/dec.bell.no_output_division_C-I_TF;productivity_review.1982.102630376.pdf http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/DEC/dec.be...
- melted 11y ago
  Sure, it's not like super senior people would actually want to do the more mundane work. You need junior devs for that.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
    - melted 11y ago
      Who gives a rat's ass about junior devs? And besides, that's not how things really work. You get an org, that org gets headcount to fill. No one is forcing anyone, those junior folks took the job on their own volition. Most of them even had fun doing it (as opposed to e.g. digging in the rotting bowels of MS Office).
- amaks 11y ago
  Except that this is not true. Almost everyone working on Midori were (very) high level engineers.
jsolson 11y ago
I work with a few of ex-Midori folks, all of whom are fantastic engineers, most of whom would not have been senior enough to have been shepherded off for being super senior.

by melted 11y ago

vog 11y ago

That's a very interesting theory. It sounds plausible. However, do you have any sources to back this up?

zakalwe2000 11y ago
that was my impression of it as well, a very senior employee retention scheme.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
melted 11y ago
No sources per se, other than a few people I know who worked there. Of course this wasn't the official party line, but it wasn't that hard to deduce.

AYBABTME 11y ago

I'm curious why they keep the super senior people if all they can do is: - Produce no output in a no output division, or - Impede progress elsewhere. Obviously I'm missing some part of the argument, can you elaborate?

peterkelly 11y ago
It's so those people who can do research, the goal of which is not necessarily producing "output" in the form of products (what I assume GP was referring to), but to experiment with new ideas and learn lessons that can subsequently be applied to new products. Microsoft's research division is one of the best in the industry: http://research.microsoft.com http://research.microsoft.com
melted 11y ago
Easy: - some of those senior employees are senior for a good reason, and they could do a ton of damage if you piss them off and they go to a competitor - some of the stuff they fool around with may end up being useful elsewhere, which it did, in some cases - and in the unlikely event that a usable product is produced, the company wins as well It's a win-win-win, no matter how you slice it.
- snaky 11y ago
  So they "may end up being useful" to degree "could do a ton of damage if they go to a competitor". That's not very similar to "produce no output" as you said before. And what is the reason why they could only "impede progress" here and "being useful" there?
  - melted 11y ago
    Very senior people are best used sparingly. Put too many of them on a real project and pit them against each other (as the old MSFT performance review process tended to do), and they start beating their chest and trying to backstab the other people they're competing with. OTOH if you put them in research and tell them how super important their project is and how it's advancing the state of the art and stuff, and you might get a few years of reprieve.
TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
DEC had an explicit "never fire anyone if you can possibly avoid it" culture. There were no significant lay-offs until the last few years. You might think that's insane, but it created a lot of loyalty. And I'm not sure it's any less sane than the current religion of cutting head counts at the first downturn in profitability, losing all the good people (because they'll be the first through the exits), and crushing the morale of the rest - never mind other popular stupidities like off-shoring to countries that don't speak English, or hiring back fired employees for vastly more money as contractors, because they're the only ones who can make stuff work. Meanwhile I keep wondering if MS should reinvent itself as a straight R&D company. The research and blue sky side regularly does supercool stuff. The management, strategy, and customer satisfaction cadres - maybe not so great, actually.
- snaky 11y ago
  That's not insane at all if the company have thoughtful hiring policy (no HR involved, reasonable trial period) and stable enough line of products.
- sinhpham 11y ago
  They had a net income of $4.62 billion last quarter, how is that "not so great"? http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/23/us-microsoft-results-idUSKCN0SG2M520151023#oAperPSST3TXZy1t.97 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/23/us-microsoft-resul...
  - kagamine 11y ago
    He didn't say they don't make money, he said they don't do supercool stuff. Money is supercool stuff too, but not in the same way.
    - sinhpham 11y ago
      What other cool stuff can "management, strategy, and customer satisfaction cadres" even do? And if just because "management, strategy, and customer satisfaction cadres" is not doing "supercool stuff" (whatever it means), the company should focus on R&D, then the vast majority of companies should cease to exist. Like it or not, companies are here to make money. Saying MS should reinvent itself to be a R&D company is like saying Toyota should stop making cars because their normal cars aren't running by water, auto driven, and charged by solar panels yet. Ya, what's the point? Use your money to research on energy, AI and what not. Never mind where that money comes from. When I read these absurd statements I think the author is either trolling, has an agenda, or is living in a bubble.

nimish 11y ago

Iirc certain bits of it eventually found their way into shipping products I think they actually did have a working os that could play media and do other things but it's unclear what the broader goal was other than pushing the boundaries on systems development Some of the design documents were really a joy to read. Very smart and thoughtful people.

agwa 11y ago

Except that Microsoft hired people out of college to work on Midori, which they surely wouldn't have done if Midori was simply a place to dump the people they couldn't/wouldn't fire, which was the point of DEC's "No output division"[1]. [1] http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/DEC/dec.bell.no_output_division_C-I_TF;productivity_review.1982.102630376.pdf http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/DEC/dec.be...

melted 11y ago
Sure, it's not like super senior people would actually want to do the more mundane work. You need junior devs for that.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - melted 11y ago
    Who gives a rat's ass about junior devs? And besides, that's not how things really work. You get an org, that org gets headcount to fill. No one is forcing anyone, those junior folks took the job on their own volition. Most of them even had fun doing it (as opposed to e.g. digging in the rotting bowels of MS Office).
amaks 11y ago
Except that this is not true. Almost everyone working on Midori were (very) high level engineers.

jsolson 11y ago

I work with a few of ex-Midori folks, all of whom are fantastic engineers, most of whom would not have been senior enough to have been shepherded off for being super senior.