5 ms·

I agree. Earlier this year I read an article highlighting just how extraordinarily rare it is to overcome morbid obesity in adulthood and maintain this progress

by rtl49 11y ago

I agree. Earlier this year I read an article highlighting just how extraordinarily rare it is to overcome morbid obesity in adulthood and maintain this progress indefinitely without medical intervention. Ultimately, we need to accept that our bodies, including the organ which gives rise to our behavior, are physical systems subject to occurrences entirely beyond our conscious control. I've not dealt with obesity personally, but I would speculate that many of the people who enjoy "fat shaming" are unfamiliar with the experience of having internal conflicts which lead one to take actions that are obviously irrational, even to the person performing them. This is an area where more empathy would lead to greater mutual understanding and perhaps increase the probability of finding solutions. (Of course, finding this empathy is perhaps a similar challenge.)

Frondo 11y ago
I think you're touching on the heart of the tension behind the "health at every size" movement. I know a couple of people who are big advocates of it, and surprise surprise, they're all pretty fat. They're still wonderful people, and I of course don't respect them less because they're fat. You know, for me, it's like..who cares? It's not my body. I'm even pretty sympathetic to how much difficulty they have doing basic stuff, just for having their joints and muscles carrying around an extra hundred pounds. But it really seems to me that what's going on is that they're reacting to the constant onslaught of fat-shaming and moral judgments with this ideology of "health at every size". There is a constant moralizing about fat people in our culture, like if you're fat you're lazy or bad or whatever, none of which is warranted. But I think that's where things get muddled--culture turns fatness into a moral failing, wrapped under a sheath of health concern trolling. Reaction to the moral judging is to try and take away the health claims, when that's really kind of missing the point. What would be appropriate, I think, is to push for "human dignity at every size," you know, and leave the moralizing to stuff that matters. But that's not so catchy or easy to distinguish, I guess... As for the actual health claims, I, for one, don't buy it at all, it seems obvious to me that carrying around excess weight is going to cause a number of immediate problems (joint strain, etc), to say nothing of the strain on your organs for being encased in excess fat. But the health stuff is separate from the moralizing, and I don't know how you'd get the larger culture to separate out "you're fat and it's hurting your body" from "you're fat and you're lazy/stupid/etc".
- fatpeopleh8 11y ago
  I care. Taxpayers in the UK spent £47bn on obesity. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/20/obesity-bigger-cost-than-war-and-terror http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/20/obesity-bigge...
- DHJSH 11y ago
  The HAES people don't seem to have a lot of respect for people at normal sizes. It's less "Healthy At Every Size" and more "Healthy at MY Size".
  - rtl49 11y ago
    Perhaps so for some. The challenge for those of us who are not their size is to empathize despite the temptation to adopt a belligerent stance in response.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- rtl49 11y ago
  The gem in the mud of "Healthy at Every Size" is indeed the encouragement of emotional resilience. Perhaps someone is a large person with an unhealthy appetite. This is unfortunate, but it doesn't mean he or she must be resigned to consuming unhealthy foods. Certainly it's better to consume 4,000 kcal per day of vegetables than the same amount in cake. So often, in a state of despair, we indulge the sunk-cost fallacy by giving up simply because our conditions are not absolutely ideal. This is the emotional phenomenon the HAES seems to have been intended to address.
DanBC 11y ago
> and maintain this progress indefinitely without medical intervention And bariatric surgery comes with significantly increased risk of suicide. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/852616?nlid=89075_2052&src=wnl_edit_medn_psyc&uac=197294HK&spon=12&impID=860596&faf=1 http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/852616?nlid=89075_2052&s...
- rtl49 11y ago
  This is interesting to learn, though I believe this line is relevant: Notably, 93% of the self-harm events occurred in patients diagnosed as having a mental health disorder during the 5 years preceding the surgery. It would appear there's some positive association between incidence of mental health conditions and obesity, which could account for at least some of this difference from the general population. Ultimately, in absolute terms, the increase in self-harm is by 1.3 out of 1000 patients, which is statistically significant, but not so much at an individual level. Considering the much more significant, known health problems associated with obesity, I don't believe this finding changes the expected value of bariatric surgery by much.
MPSimmons 11y ago
It's hard to admit this, but I have found since I lost around 90 pounds (~41KG), I've found myself mentally judging overweight people pretty harshly. I don't mean to do it, it just happens. I think it may come from the, "if I can do it anyone can" line of thinking, but I'm not proud of it.
- rtl49 11y ago
  If we gave voice to every harsh judgment that comes to mind, we would never stop criticizing other people. There's a tension between the need to see oneself in a positive light and the desire to think positively of others. If you manage to keep these feelings to yourself, I see no cause for shame.
- gmarx 11y ago
  I've been really fat most of my life, currently doing pretty well. When you have this problem most people, if they ever lose weight, experience a cycle- lose a lot of weight followed by cockiness/judginess (maybe, I never got that) followed by imperceptible creeping up back to and past original weight. I've done that at least 4 times
MPSimmons 11y ago
It's hard to admit this, but I have found since I lost around 90 pounds (~41KG), I've found myself mentally judging overweight people pretty harshly. I don't mean to do it, it just happens. I think it may come from the, "if I can do it anyone can" line of thinking, but I'm not proud of it.

by rtl49 11y ago

Frondo 11y ago

I think you're touching on the heart of the tension behind the "health at every size" movement. I know a couple of people who are big advocates of it, and surprise surprise, they're all pretty fat. They're still wonderful people, and I of course don't respect them less because they're fat. You know, for me, it's like..who cares? It's not my body. I'm even pretty sympathetic to how much difficulty they have doing basic stuff, just for having their joints and muscles carrying around an extra hundred pounds. But it really seems to me that what's going on is that they're reacting to the constant onslaught of fat-shaming and moral judgments with this ideology of "health at every size". There is a constant moralizing about fat people in our culture, like if you're fat you're lazy or bad or whatever, none of which is warranted. But I think that's where things get muddled--culture turns fatness into a moral failing, wrapped under a sheath of health concern trolling. Reaction to the moral judging is to try and take away the health claims, when that's really kind of missing the point. What would be appropriate, I think, is to push for "human dignity at every size," you know, and leave the moralizing to stuff that matters. But that's not so catchy or easy to distinguish, I guess... As for the actual health claims, I, for one, don't buy it at all, it seems obvious to me that carrying around excess weight is going to cause a number of immediate problems (joint strain, etc), to say nothing of the strain on your organs for being encased in excess fat. But the health stuff is separate from the moralizing, and I don't know how you'd get the larger culture to separate out "you're fat and it's hurting your body" from "you're fat and you're lazy/stupid/etc".

fatpeopleh8 11y ago
I care. Taxpayers in the UK spent £47bn on obesity. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/20/obesity-bigger-cost-than-war-and-terror http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/20/obesity-bigge...
DHJSH 11y ago
The HAES people don't seem to have a lot of respect for people at normal sizes. It's less "Healthy At Every Size" and more "Healthy at MY Size".
- rtl49 11y ago
  Perhaps so for some. The challenge for those of us who are not their size is to empathize despite the temptation to adopt a belligerent stance in response.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
rtl49 11y ago
The gem in the mud of "Healthy at Every Size" is indeed the encouragement of emotional resilience. Perhaps someone is a large person with an unhealthy appetite. This is unfortunate, but it doesn't mean he or she must be resigned to consuming unhealthy foods. Certainly it's better to consume 4,000 kcal per day of vegetables than the same amount in cake. So often, in a state of despair, we indulge the sunk-cost fallacy by giving up simply because our conditions are not absolutely ideal. This is the emotional phenomenon the HAES seems to have been intended to address.

DanBC 11y ago

> and maintain this progress indefinitely without medical intervention And bariatric surgery comes with significantly increased risk of suicide. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/852616?nlid=89075_2052&src=wnl_edit_medn_psyc&uac=197294HK&spon=12&impID=860596&faf=1 http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/852616?nlid=89075_2052&s...

rtl49 11y ago
This is interesting to learn, though I believe this line is relevant: Notably, 93% of the self-harm events occurred in patients diagnosed as having a mental health disorder during the 5 years preceding the surgery. It would appear there's some positive association between incidence of mental health conditions and obesity, which could account for at least some of this difference from the general population. Ultimately, in absolute terms, the increase in self-harm is by 1.3 out of 1000 patients, which is statistically significant, but not so much at an individual level. Considering the much more significant, known health problems associated with obesity, I don't believe this finding changes the expected value of bariatric surgery by much.

MPSimmons 11y ago

It's hard to admit this, but I have found since I lost around 90 pounds (~41KG), I've found myself mentally judging overweight people pretty harshly. I don't mean to do it, it just happens. I think it may come from the, "if I can do it anyone can" line of thinking, but I'm not proud of it.

rtl49 11y ago
If we gave voice to every harsh judgment that comes to mind, we would never stop criticizing other people. There's a tension between the need to see oneself in a positive light and the desire to think positively of others. If you manage to keep these feelings to yourself, I see no cause for shame.
gmarx 11y ago
I've been really fat most of my life, currently doing pretty well. When you have this problem most people, if they ever lose weight, experience a cycle- lose a lot of weight followed by cockiness/judginess (maybe, I never got that) followed by imperceptible creeping up back to and past original weight. I've done that at least 4 times

MPSimmons 11y ago