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This is significant as well in that it points out that people can legitimately struggle with overweight eating issues as the brain adapts and makes people more

This is significant as well in that it points out that people can legitimately struggle with overweight eating issues as the brain adapts and makes people more hungry. I struggled a lot with losing weight and continue to struggle with keeping it off. It's frustrating when some folks (presumably, who have never struggled with weight and eating, and the psychology issues with eating, such as eating to feel good and then feeling depressed because of overeating) say simplistic things like "just don't eat so much" or "try having a salad". It's not that being big is healthy; it's not. It's that breaking the cycle of being big is hard (for some).

rtl49 11y ago
I agree. Earlier this year I read an article highlighting just how extraordinarily rare it is to overcome morbid obesity in adulthood and maintain this progress indefinitely without medical intervention. Ultimately, we need to accept that our bodies, including the organ which gives rise to our behavior, are physical systems subject to occurrences entirely beyond our conscious control. I've not dealt with obesity personally, but I would speculate that many of the people who enjoy "fat shaming" are unfamiliar with the experience of having internal conflicts which lead one to take actions that are obviously irrational, even to the person performing them. This is an area where more empathy would lead to greater mutual understanding and perhaps increase the probability of finding solutions. (Of course, finding this empathy is perhaps a similar challenge.)
- Frondo 11y ago
  I think you're touching on the heart of the tension behind the "health at every size" movement. I know a couple of people who are big advocates of it, and surprise surprise, they're all pretty fat. They're still wonderful people, and I of course don't respect them less because they're fat. You know, for me, it's like..who cares? It's not my body. I'm even pretty sympathetic to how much difficulty they have doing basic stuff, just for having their joints and muscles carrying around an extra hundred pounds. But it really seems to me that what's going on is that they're reacting to the constant onslaught of fat-shaming and moral judgments with this ideology of "health at every size". There is a constant moralizing about fat people in our culture, like if you're fat you're lazy or bad or whatever, none of which is warranted. But I think that's where things get muddled--culture turns fatness into a moral failing, wrapped under a sheath of health concern trolling. Reaction to the moral judging is to try and take away the health claims, when that's really kind of missing the point. What would be appropriate, I think, is to push for "human dignity at every size," you know, and leave the moralizing to stuff that matters. But that's not so catchy or easy to distinguish, I guess... As for the actual health claims, I, for one, don't buy it at all, it seems obvious to me that carrying around excess weight is going to cause a number of immediate problems (joint strain, etc), to say nothing of the strain on your organs for being encased in excess fat. But the health stuff is separate from the moralizing, and I don't know how you'd get the larger culture to separate out "you're fat and it's hurting your body" from "you're fat and you're lazy/stupid/etc".
  - fatpeopleh8 11y ago
    I care. Taxpayers in the UK spent £47bn on obesity. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/20/obesity-bigger-cost-than-war-and-terror http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/20/obesity-bigge...
  - DHJSH 11y ago
    The HAES people don't seem to have a lot of respect for people at normal sizes. It's less "Healthy At Every Size" and more "Healthy at MY Size".
    - rtl49 11y ago
      Perhaps so for some. The challenge for those of us who are not their size is to empathize despite the temptation to adopt a belligerent stance in response.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - rtl49 11y ago
    The gem in the mud of "Healthy at Every Size" is indeed the encouragement of emotional resilience. Perhaps someone is a large person with an unhealthy appetite. This is unfortunate, but it doesn't mean he or she must be resigned to consuming unhealthy foods. Certainly it's better to consume 4,000 kcal per day of vegetables than the same amount in cake. So often, in a state of despair, we indulge the sunk-cost fallacy by giving up simply because our conditions are not absolutely ideal. This is the emotional phenomenon the HAES seems to have been intended to address.
- DanBC 11y ago
  > and maintain this progress indefinitely without medical intervention And bariatric surgery comes with significantly increased risk of suicide. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/852616?nlid=89075_2052&src=wnl_edit_medn_psyc&uac=197294HK&spon=12&impID=860596&faf=1 http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/852616?nlid=89075_2052&s...
  - rtl49 11y ago
    This is interesting to learn, though I believe this line is relevant: Notably, 93% of the self-harm events occurred in patients diagnosed as having a mental health disorder during the 5 years preceding the surgery. It would appear there's some positive association between incidence of mental health conditions and obesity, which could account for at least some of this difference from the general population. Ultimately, in absolute terms, the increase in self-harm is by 1.3 out of 1000 patients, which is statistically significant, but not so much at an individual level. Considering the much more significant, known health problems associated with obesity, I don't believe this finding changes the expected value of bariatric surgery by much.
- MPSimmons 11y ago
  It's hard to admit this, but I have found since I lost around 90 pounds (~41KG), I've found myself mentally judging overweight people pretty harshly. I don't mean to do it, it just happens. I think it may come from the, "if I can do it anyone can" line of thinking, but I'm not proud of it.
  - rtl49 11y ago
    If we gave voice to every harsh judgment that comes to mind, we would never stop criticizing other people. There's a tension between the need to see oneself in a positive light and the desire to think positively of others. If you manage to keep these feelings to yourself, I see no cause for shame.
  - gmarx 11y ago
    I've been really fat most of my life, currently doing pretty well. When you have this problem most people, if they ever lose weight, experience a cycle- lose a lot of weight followed by cockiness/judginess (maybe, I never got that) followed by imperceptible creeping up back to and past original weight. I've done that at least 4 times
- MPSimmons 11y ago
  It's hard to admit this, but I have found since I lost around 90 pounds (~41KG), I've found myself mentally judging overweight people pretty harshly. I don't mean to do it, it just happens. I think it may come from the, "if I can do it anyone can" line of thinking, but I'm not proud of it.
atwebb 11y ago
That goes for a lot of issues, it's hard to empathize. Addict? Just stop using Alcoholic? Just stop drinking Gambling issues? Just stop betting Depressed? Just cheer up Unmotivated? Just try harder There are underlying, complex factors to most of these and many other issues. It's easier to ignore them when you've never directly dealt with it.
- sharpray 11y ago
  There's an obvious difference here. If the addict can't find drugs anymore, he can't use them. If the alcoholic can't find alcohol anymore, he can't drink it. If the gambler can't find slot machines, he can't gamble. If the overeater can't find food, he can't eat. The same can't be said for depressed and unmotivated people - there's nothing you can take away from them in order to keep them from suffering depression or demotivation. Since they themselves can't take those things away from themselves for their own good, the addic, the alcoholic, the gambler and the overeater really suffer from the same problem, lack of self-control. EDIT: atwebb: Since having self-control would suffice to stop using drugs, drinking alcohol, gambling, and overeating, therefore one who can't stop doing any of those has to be lacking self-control. Tell me where you got lost in that argument.
  - atwebb 11y ago
    >lack of self-control I don't know where you come from, I don't know what life you've led and things you've seen. In my experiences, self-control is hardly the actual problem. The addictions/compulsions are manifestations of the depression or the lack of self-worth or mental imbalances or personal issue X.
- allencoin 11y ago
  >Unmotivated? Just try harder Or my personal favorite, "Work harder."
- mseebach 11y ago
  Yes, absolutely -- but all of these ills, as with obesity, are possibly even more ill-served by an acceptance movement.
spinlock 11y ago
I used to think the healthy at any weight movement was a gateway to actually being healthy. Start acting healthy and forming healthy habits and eventually you'll be healthy. Kinda like magic thinking except it would actually work. But, there's a backlash against people who actually loose weight in the movement. That's the part I just don't understand.

rtl49 11y ago

I agree. Earlier this year I read an article highlighting just how extraordinarily rare it is to overcome morbid obesity in adulthood and maintain this progress indefinitely without medical intervention. Ultimately, we need to accept that our bodies, including the organ which gives rise to our behavior, are physical systems subject to occurrences entirely beyond our conscious control. I've not dealt with obesity personally, but I would speculate that many of the people who enjoy "fat shaming" are unfamiliar with the experience of having internal conflicts which lead one to take actions that are obviously irrational, even to the person performing them. This is an area where more empathy would lead to greater mutual understanding and perhaps increase the probability of finding solutions. (Of course, finding this empathy is perhaps a similar challenge.)

Frondo 11y ago
I think you're touching on the heart of the tension behind the "health at every size" movement. I know a couple of people who are big advocates of it, and surprise surprise, they're all pretty fat. They're still wonderful people, and I of course don't respect them less because they're fat. You know, for me, it's like..who cares? It's not my body. I'm even pretty sympathetic to how much difficulty they have doing basic stuff, just for having their joints and muscles carrying around an extra hundred pounds. But it really seems to me that what's going on is that they're reacting to the constant onslaught of fat-shaming and moral judgments with this ideology of "health at every size". There is a constant moralizing about fat people in our culture, like if you're fat you're lazy or bad or whatever, none of which is warranted. But I think that's where things get muddled--culture turns fatness into a moral failing, wrapped under a sheath of health concern trolling. Reaction to the moral judging is to try and take away the health claims, when that's really kind of missing the point. What would be appropriate, I think, is to push for "human dignity at every size," you know, and leave the moralizing to stuff that matters. But that's not so catchy or easy to distinguish, I guess... As for the actual health claims, I, for one, don't buy it at all, it seems obvious to me that carrying around excess weight is going to cause a number of immediate problems (joint strain, etc), to say nothing of the strain on your organs for being encased in excess fat. But the health stuff is separate from the moralizing, and I don't know how you'd get the larger culture to separate out "you're fat and it's hurting your body" from "you're fat and you're lazy/stupid/etc".
- fatpeopleh8 11y ago
  I care. Taxpayers in the UK spent £47bn on obesity. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/20/obesity-bigger-cost-than-war-and-terror http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/20/obesity-bigge...
- DHJSH 11y ago
  The HAES people don't seem to have a lot of respect for people at normal sizes. It's less "Healthy At Every Size" and more "Healthy at MY Size".
  - rtl49 11y ago
    Perhaps so for some. The challenge for those of us who are not their size is to empathize despite the temptation to adopt a belligerent stance in response.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- rtl49 11y ago
  The gem in the mud of "Healthy at Every Size" is indeed the encouragement of emotional resilience. Perhaps someone is a large person with an unhealthy appetite. This is unfortunate, but it doesn't mean he or she must be resigned to consuming unhealthy foods. Certainly it's better to consume 4,000 kcal per day of vegetables than the same amount in cake. So often, in a state of despair, we indulge the sunk-cost fallacy by giving up simply because our conditions are not absolutely ideal. This is the emotional phenomenon the HAES seems to have been intended to address.
DanBC 11y ago
> and maintain this progress indefinitely without medical intervention And bariatric surgery comes with significantly increased risk of suicide. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/852616?nlid=89075_2052&src=wnl_edit_medn_psyc&uac=197294HK&spon=12&impID=860596&faf=1 http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/852616?nlid=89075_2052&s...
- rtl49 11y ago
  This is interesting to learn, though I believe this line is relevant: Notably, 93% of the self-harm events occurred in patients diagnosed as having a mental health disorder during the 5 years preceding the surgery. It would appear there's some positive association between incidence of mental health conditions and obesity, which could account for at least some of this difference from the general population. Ultimately, in absolute terms, the increase in self-harm is by 1.3 out of 1000 patients, which is statistically significant, but not so much at an individual level. Considering the much more significant, known health problems associated with obesity, I don't believe this finding changes the expected value of bariatric surgery by much.
MPSimmons 11y ago
It's hard to admit this, but I have found since I lost around 90 pounds (~41KG), I've found myself mentally judging overweight people pretty harshly. I don't mean to do it, it just happens. I think it may come from the, "if I can do it anyone can" line of thinking, but I'm not proud of it.
- rtl49 11y ago
  If we gave voice to every harsh judgment that comes to mind, we would never stop criticizing other people. There's a tension between the need to see oneself in a positive light and the desire to think positively of others. If you manage to keep these feelings to yourself, I see no cause for shame.
- gmarx 11y ago
  I've been really fat most of my life, currently doing pretty well. When you have this problem most people, if they ever lose weight, experience a cycle- lose a lot of weight followed by cockiness/judginess (maybe, I never got that) followed by imperceptible creeping up back to and past original weight. I've done that at least 4 times
MPSimmons 11y ago
It's hard to admit this, but I have found since I lost around 90 pounds (~41KG), I've found myself mentally judging overweight people pretty harshly. I don't mean to do it, it just happens. I think it may come from the, "if I can do it anyone can" line of thinking, but I'm not proud of it.

atwebb 11y ago

That goes for a lot of issues, it's hard to empathize. Addict? Just stop using Alcoholic? Just stop drinking Gambling issues? Just stop betting Depressed? Just cheer up Unmotivated? Just try harder There are underlying, complex factors to most of these and many other issues. It's easier to ignore them when you've never directly dealt with it.

sharpray 11y ago
There's an obvious difference here. If the addict can't find drugs anymore, he can't use them. If the alcoholic can't find alcohol anymore, he can't drink it. If the gambler can't find slot machines, he can't gamble. If the overeater can't find food, he can't eat. The same can't be said for depressed and unmotivated people - there's nothing you can take away from them in order to keep them from suffering depression or demotivation. Since they themselves can't take those things away from themselves for their own good, the addic, the alcoholic, the gambler and the overeater really suffer from the same problem, lack of self-control. EDIT: atwebb: Since having self-control would suffice to stop using drugs, drinking alcohol, gambling, and overeating, therefore one who can't stop doing any of those has to be lacking self-control. Tell me where you got lost in that argument.
- atwebb 11y ago
  >lack of self-control I don't know where you come from, I don't know what life you've led and things you've seen. In my experiences, self-control is hardly the actual problem. The addictions/compulsions are manifestations of the depression or the lack of self-worth or mental imbalances or personal issue X.
allencoin 11y ago
>Unmotivated? Just try harder Or my personal favorite, "Work harder."
mseebach 11y ago
Yes, absolutely -- but all of these ills, as with obesity, are possibly even more ill-served by an acceptance movement.

spinlock 11y ago

I used to think the healthy at any weight movement was a gateway to actually being healthy. Start acting healthy and forming healthy habits and eventually you'll be healthy. Kinda like magic thinking except it would actually work. But, there's a backlash against people who actually loose weight in the movement. That's the part I just don't understand.