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When the message starts with a private 'revelation', not to me but to others, that I have to unquestionably accept giving some other mammal total control over m

by redial 11y ago

When the message starts with a private 'revelation', not to me but to others, that I have to unquestionably accept giving some other mammal total control over my mind or be tortured forever, I don't need to be told anymore. It's insulting, childish, it belongs in the infancy of our species and it needs to be outgrown, never mind how 'good' it makes you feel inside.

Cyph0n 11y ago
What private revelation? Go to your nearest bookstore and pick up the Quran. Problem solved. "Other mammal" here refers to what exactly? As for punishment, that happens when you intentionally deny the existence of the Creator, even when given the access to His word and religion. Islam teaches us that human beings are born pure and good by default, unlike other religions. Suppose you lived your life on a remote island, never knowing about Islam or the Quran. In that case, you will be treated as if you lived your whole life as a Muslim in the hereafter. Why? Because you did not actively and intentionally deny it, and were not aware of its existence. If you think religion is childish, OK. I don't.
- redial 11y ago
  Other mammals as in the ones who use religious texts to get 'power' in the real world. Politicians, military leaders, jihadists, and sadly even teachers and parents. And was the Quran not a revelation from 'God' only to Muhammad? If he wants to believe it, fine, why should anybody else? Oh yes, eternal torture. It is childish to be told a story and believe it true only because they threaten you.
  - Cyph0n 11y ago
    Oh yes, I agree. Unfortunately, we live in an imperfect world where not all followers of a religion follow its true message. You might say "well OK, so get rid of religion". People will still seek power, but in other ways. In other words, there are people who always seek the easiest way to gain more power and influence. Yes, the Quran was revealed directly to Muhammad. He told his wife first, and she believed him. It just spread from there. I'd argue that the absolutely miracolous rate at which Islam spread throughout the region is a plus in favor of Islam :) As for your point about eternal torture, let's say a guy comes up to you in the street nowadays and tells you he's a Prophet sent by God to save humanity. He tells you about this book called Mojimbi which is the word of God. At this point, you have complete freedom to accept of reject his claim. Unless he can convince you that what he's saying is true, you wouldn't believe him and he'd be on his way. Muhammad however was able to convince people with two things. One, he was known in his community to be an extremely honest person; never once did anyone hear of him lying. He was a trader, so he dealt with a lot of people. So when he said that he was visited by an angel etc, some people just believed him on the spot. Of course, many others called him crazy, so it wasn't a fool-proof plan. Two, he had the Quran. Some background first. The community Muhammad lived in was very well-versed in the Arabic language. Most mastered the language and its intricacies by the age of 10, and were known as experts in poetry. Look it up, Arabic is extremely complex. So he recites some verses from the Quran to people and claims that these are words from Allah (keep in mind he was illiterate). They were amazed, absolutely awestruck by the words coming out of his mouth. The structure and linguistic nature of the verses was perfect, and this was coming from experts in the language! One of the Prophet's biggest critics (and a great poet no less) at the time was almost going to join Islam just because of this. Now, let's go back to the example. You're a professor of English language at Standford, and a guy you've dealt with a lot and who you know is an extremely honest person in all aspects tells you the same message. He also recites some verses that are so elegant and beautiful in structure that they make Shakespeare look like a pre-schooler's work, and tells you these are the words of God. Wouldn't that make things different?
    - terrn 11y ago
      Sigh...there are a lot of problems with your statement. The first is that you are reciting anecdotes from 1400 years ago; there is absolutely no proof of anything you said. Even if we accept that the Quran was given to Mohammed by God, we have to at least acknowledge the possibility that a lot of what you've learned has been added in by various persons over the course of many hundreds of years i.e. we cannot be so sure about anything that is written down, by anyone, at any time, especially from something as old as the Quran. And to be clear, that applies to all writing, the Bible, etc. The second is that no, believing ANYBODY about ANYTHING, no matter how eloquently put, is foolish to say the least. It doesn't make a difference if they are my parent or not, never mind some professor or total stranger. The only person who can decide if something is right or not is YOU. Belief should not be based on how charismatic anyone is, that is irrelevant. Unfortunately, you have total responsibility for your actions and opinions and it is inexcusable to believe anyone or anything without first exploring your doubt. And even then it is up to you to walk the line of what should be believed and what should be questioned.
      - Cyph0n 11y ago
        No, there is proof that that's how it started. These "anecdotes" were passed down by narration initially, then they were recorded by two scholars: Al Bukhari and Muslim. The methods they used for verification were amazing, which is why we believe most of what they deemed valid. If you'd like to know more about how they did this, I can elaborate. As for the Quran, it has been passed down by rote memorization. This is the difference between it and other books: people memorized it AND wrote it down. No other book in history has been memorized by so many people at once. Even now the record stands. Of course, the Quran could be falsely memorized in a localized instance, but not in all places at once. Many attempts were made to falsify the Quran systematically, but they failed due to the sheer number of people who had it committed to memory. I simply don't agree with your opinion on belief.
        Nursie 11y ago
        >> These "anecdotes" were passed down by narration initially You've heard of "Chinese Whispers" right?
  - sammydavis 11y ago
    What you are describing as a private revelation from god is not different than the ones in christianity, such as seeing that burning bush.
    - redial 11y ago
      Of course, that is why most religions are wrong in the same way.

by redial 11y ago

Cyph0n 11y ago

What private revelation? Go to your nearest bookstore and pick up the Quran. Problem solved. "Other mammal" here refers to what exactly? As for punishment, that happens when you intentionally deny the existence of the Creator, even when given the access to His word and religion. Islam teaches us that human beings are born pure and good by default, unlike other religions. Suppose you lived your life on a remote island, never knowing about Islam or the Quran. In that case, you will be treated as if you lived your whole life as a Muslim in the hereafter. Why? Because you did not actively and intentionally deny it, and were not aware of its existence. If you think religion is childish, OK. I don't.

redial 11y ago
Other mammals as in the ones who use religious texts to get 'power' in the real world. Politicians, military leaders, jihadists, and sadly even teachers and parents. And was the Quran not a revelation from 'God' only to Muhammad? If he wants to believe it, fine, why should anybody else? Oh yes, eternal torture. It is childish to be told a story and believe it true only because they threaten you.
- Cyph0n 11y ago
  Oh yes, I agree. Unfortunately, we live in an imperfect world where not all followers of a religion follow its true message. You might say "well OK, so get rid of religion". People will still seek power, but in other ways. In other words, there are people who always seek the easiest way to gain more power and influence. Yes, the Quran was revealed directly to Muhammad. He told his wife first, and she believed him. It just spread from there. I'd argue that the absolutely miracolous rate at which Islam spread throughout the region is a plus in favor of Islam :) As for your point about eternal torture, let's say a guy comes up to you in the street nowadays and tells you he's a Prophet sent by God to save humanity. He tells you about this book called Mojimbi which is the word of God. At this point, you have complete freedom to accept of reject his claim. Unless he can convince you that what he's saying is true, you wouldn't believe him and he'd be on his way. Muhammad however was able to convince people with two things. One, he was known in his community to be an extremely honest person; never once did anyone hear of him lying. He was a trader, so he dealt with a lot of people. So when he said that he was visited by an angel etc, some people just believed him on the spot. Of course, many others called him crazy, so it wasn't a fool-proof plan. Two, he had the Quran. Some background first. The community Muhammad lived in was very well-versed in the Arabic language. Most mastered the language and its intricacies by the age of 10, and were known as experts in poetry. Look it up, Arabic is extremely complex. So he recites some verses from the Quran to people and claims that these are words from Allah (keep in mind he was illiterate). They were amazed, absolutely awestruck by the words coming out of his mouth. The structure and linguistic nature of the verses was perfect, and this was coming from experts in the language! One of the Prophet's biggest critics (and a great poet no less) at the time was almost going to join Islam just because of this. Now, let's go back to the example. You're a professor of English language at Standford, and a guy you've dealt with a lot and who you know is an extremely honest person in all aspects tells you the same message. He also recites some verses that are so elegant and beautiful in structure that they make Shakespeare look like a pre-schooler's work, and tells you these are the words of God. Wouldn't that make things different?
  - terrn 11y ago
    Sigh...there are a lot of problems with your statement. The first is that you are reciting anecdotes from 1400 years ago; there is absolutely no proof of anything you said. Even if we accept that the Quran was given to Mohammed by God, we have to at least acknowledge the possibility that a lot of what you've learned has been added in by various persons over the course of many hundreds of years i.e. we cannot be so sure about anything that is written down, by anyone, at any time, especially from something as old as the Quran. And to be clear, that applies to all writing, the Bible, etc. The second is that no, believing ANYBODY about ANYTHING, no matter how eloquently put, is foolish to say the least. It doesn't make a difference if they are my parent or not, never mind some professor or total stranger. The only person who can decide if something is right or not is YOU. Belief should not be based on how charismatic anyone is, that is irrelevant. Unfortunately, you have total responsibility for your actions and opinions and it is inexcusable to believe anyone or anything without first exploring your doubt. And even then it is up to you to walk the line of what should be believed and what should be questioned.
    - Cyph0n 11y ago
      No, there is proof that that's how it started. These "anecdotes" were passed down by narration initially, then they were recorded by two scholars: Al Bukhari and Muslim. The methods they used for verification were amazing, which is why we believe most of what they deemed valid. If you'd like to know more about how they did this, I can elaborate. As for the Quran, it has been passed down by rote memorization. This is the difference between it and other books: people memorized it AND wrote it down. No other book in history has been memorized by so many people at once. Even now the record stands. Of course, the Quran could be falsely memorized in a localized instance, but not in all places at once. Many attempts were made to falsify the Quran systematically, but they failed due to the sheer number of people who had it committed to memory. I simply don't agree with your opinion on belief.
      - Nursie 11y ago
        >> These "anecdotes" were passed down by narration initially You've heard of "Chinese Whispers" right?
- sammydavis 11y ago
  What you are describing as a private revelation from god is not different than the ones in christianity, such as seeing that burning bush.
  - redial 11y ago
    Of course, that is why most religions are wrong in the same way.