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>And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become victims of that 40% That statement really doesn't

>And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become victims of that 40% That statement really doesn't make much sense at all. People are fleeing a war, among them people from the 40% and the 60% group alike. And no one in Europe is advocating throwing anyone back into a war zone. Many want the refugees stay somewhere in the region instead of letting them come to Europe by the millions. It's not my opinion, but please don't compare that opinion with people who advocate that homosexuals, adulterers and apostates should be put to death. There is no 40% group of the population in Europe that holds views that are anywhere near as disgusting as that. Your relativism goes too far. [Edit] And just to make it clear, I do not believe that it is really 40% who really hold those opinions. It's probably less. I hope.

jacquesm 11y ago
> And no one in Europe is advocating throwing anyone back into a war zone. Ah, you must be a bit out of touch with recent developments in NL. We're soon to have elections and it looks like we'll have Geert Wilders for prime minister, his main motto is 'close the borders', the secondary one is 'the problem is the foreigners' and the third is 'let's throw all those refugees out'. And whether it is exactly 40% or not is immaterial, the numbers are scary. http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/09/geert-wilders-party-is-the-largest-in-the-netherlands/ http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/09/geert-wilders-party-is-the-... That's 30% declared right there, another 10% undeclared would not surprise me at all.
- fauigerzigerk 11y ago
  >his main motto is 'close the borders' I'm not out of touch enough to have missed this opinion. But that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. We don't have borders with Syria. But you are right that I don't know specifically what that Dutch politician actually demands other than closing the borders.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    If it were up to Geert Wilders we'd be going around with a color chart in shades of brown and a burning Koran to figure out who we should kick out and who is allowed to stay.
    - alvarosm 11y ago
      And if it were up to you you'd turn your country into a third world shithole. Just a similarly bigoted fact.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
      Well if you ditch the color chart and add a burning New Testament and Chumash, I don't see the problem.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        OT3? In that bastion of critical thought called 'the Onion' they had a pretty good summary of such a solution: http://www.theonion.com/article/northern-irish-serbs-hutus-granted-homeland-in-wes-305 http://www.theonion.com/article/northern-irish-serbs-hutus-g...
  - toyg 11y ago
    > that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. "In the region", you can choose whether to send them to: 1) Turkey, an increasingly-authoritarian regime which is already overflowing with millions of refugees, making money with the fanatics and holding mainstream cultural values that tend to despise people from Syria/Kurdistan/Iraq; 2) Lebanon, a country where refugees from other conflicts already account for over a third of the total population, and which is far from stable on its own (half-run by the unofficial Hezbollah militia) 3) Israel. They don't even want "their own" arabs... 4) Iraq, another war-torn country half-owned by the same petro-fanatics; 5) Iran, which is logistically very difficult (being on the other side of warzone Iraq) and, well, not great for people running from religious fanatics; 6) Jordan, another poor and unstable country already full of refugees from previous conflicts. 7) Saudi Arabia. They're the ones funding the fanatics. Enough said. 8) Egypt. Yet another dictator, vaguely more stable, as ruthless as Assad. They also have permanent Palestinian camps which have been there for decades and clearly don't want any more. 9) Palestine/Gaza or Palestine / West Bank. Let's not even go there. Ok, let's go further then: Libya? Sorry, other war. Tunisia? Another wobbly government, and so close to Europe to make it look silly. Georgia/Armenia/Azerbaijan? Dictators, guerrillas... Yemen? Other war. Oman? Same guy has been in charge for 45 years. We can go on, but tbh, it's all like that. Countries in the region are either f*ed up, autocratic regimes, or are actively sponsoring the lunatics. Decent people have nowhere to go.
- johnchristopher 11y ago
  I don't understand how living in Belgium I missed that (nitpick: s/president/prime-minister). But then again these are just polls. And then there needs to be a majority coalition. But it's a far cry from the Netherlands I knew in the 90's. Back on the topic: there are some really disturbing messages on social networks and in politician mouths regarding the refugees (who are called migrants here).
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    Thanks for the correction, comment updated, the Dutch term is 'minister president'. And yes, the coalition is pretty much our hope right now, but Wilders is ex VVD and SP might even join (they have a lot of similar things in their programs even though they're on opposite points of the political spectrum in nl, how that happened is another story). A 'cordon sanitaire' has been discussed but it is also already being broken. The Netherlands that you knew in the 90's is dead, 25 years of divisive politics have seen to that. Yes, it is absolutely deplorable how our 'chosen leaders' are positioning themselves and how they use the Paris attacks as a fig leaf cover to do things they nominally would have nothing to do with, except now that it is politically expedient.
- sgt 11y ago
  I'm not in Europe, but I've heard about Geert Wilders and seen him speak in a few online videos. He doesn't actually seem to be that radical, except in terms of immigration where he seems to be taking a tough stance. But as all seemingly extremists becoming prime ministers, he'll eventually learn to see a bit more of the bigger picture and cool down if he gets in office.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    At the risk of Godwinning this thread, that's something I read in some old documents too. That time it didn't work.
    - bad_user 11y ago
      In the context of human rights and xenophobic behavior, please don't censor yourself in order to not violate some stupid Internet meme. The nazis represent an anti-pattern for society we should always remember. After all in each of us there's always potential for evil, all it takes is a capable leader to channel that potential to some common purpose that blurs our ethics.
      - escape_goat 11y ago
        The success of fascist tendencies is definitely a code smell. In a less extreme sense, any development that embraces the use of global variables bears a risk of unpredictable and potentially catastrophic outcomes. Sadly, because it is so easy to refer to global variables, they will always have a great deal of appeal for those seeking closures. </humor>
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        Ok, so let me spell it out then: Geert Wilders is seen by a surprisingly large number of people who really should know better as a 'great leader' and a 'strong man' who will lead us out of this mess. The biggest thing on 'our side' is that NL is a crappy little country and that we don't have a functioning army (or at least, not a very large one) due to budget cuts over the last couple of years. But Mr. Wilders is taking a lot of leaves out of the playbook of Mr. Hitler, who - just to remind you - was also voted into power. He's positioning himself as the solution to a problem, a problem that has been on the minds of many. The idea that once in power he won't be quite as bad is hilarious, he's been playing his cards very close to his chest, runs his 'party' as a one man show with a puppet faction backing him up in the chambers of parliament and will no doubt make at least an attempt to deliver. At a minimum his plans will set NL back about 25 years in international relations, his policies are strongly isolationist (return to the guilder, close the borders, withdraw from various treaties and so on) and his stance on freedom of religion and such will make NL the laughingstock of the EU at best and a pariah at worst. Once NL is successfully isolated from the influence of the rest of the EU I expect him to reveal his real playbook. Whatever it is it can't be much good given what we've seen to date. This is a very scared, very scary person who is pushing every emotional button available with his policies and rhetoric who has the backing of a much too large segment of the country already. If you had told me 25 years ago that this would happen in NL I would not have believed you but I'm witnessing it. This whole thing started with the murder of a guy called Pim Fortuyn, the previous populist (who at least made some sense some of the time), he would have done some damage but not enough to seriously threaten the country. The segment woken up by the voice of Fortuyn was then handily co-opted by Wilders, who is now in an excellent position to put his play-book into action. It's super scary to watch friends and even relatives succumb to this idiots words and to hear his words being echoed by people dear to you. It's like watching a re-run of Germany, ca. 1935, and then too people were saying 'Oh, it won't be that bad, he's just going to wake up when he actually has power' and we all know how that one ended. Again, fortunately, NL is a crappy little country, but don't forget that Hitler came from Austria, not from Germany to begin with, who knows what his plans are. There is a large body of similar minded people in Belgium, and a much larger one still in France led by one Marine Le Pen. You can bet they're planning some sort of collaboration (too early to call it an anschluss) once they have managed to capture some power. It's like watching the periscope of a submarine moving through a flotilla of merchant boats.
- fineman 11y ago
  Yeah, it's still not the rape, enslavement, and murder of everyone who believes differently. Threatening to close your border to incoming foreigners is nothing like like closing your border, enslaving locals trying to flee you, and murdering them systematically. And there's a difference between a leader being elected once on a wave of fear and the leader declaring themselves god's representative on earth - let the slaughter begin.
- morgante 11y ago
  > We're soon to have elections and it looks like we'll have Geert Wilders for prime minister That's incredibly depressing. I only know of Geert Wilders from the court case (it was part of a law class), but I always assumed he was some uber-fringe politician who would never get anywhere near high office. The world is entering a new period of radicalization and I'm very worried about the consequences.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    Yes, it is depressing. What's even more depressing is when you walk around say a supermarket here and you're wondering to yourself which one of the 5 people waiting in line at the checkout is the closet facist. The old friendly lady? The woman with the toddler? You think you may be able to rule out the dude with the 'peace' sign around his neck, but you can't be really sure. I know it isn't me and the kid in front of me isn't of voting age yet.
DasIch 11y ago
The majority of the refugees are staying in the region they're from. It's only a tiny minority that even attempts to flee to Europe and fewer still survive that trip.
- fauigerzigerk 11y ago
  "Tiny" is probably no longer quite the right word, but yes, most are staying in the region. The poorest ones apparently. And to make it clear, I'm not concerned about the number of people coming to Europe. I'm concerned about the attitudes of conservative Islam, anywhere in the world.
coldtea 11y ago
>There is no 40% group of the population in Europe that holds views that are anywhere near as disgusting as that. Well, only 50+ years ago there was an over 40% population in the US that thought that blacks were inferior and shouldn't sit in the same restaurants/hotels/schools with whites. In fact it was even law in some states. Beyond that, there were about all major western countries, France, UK, Belgium, Holland, Italy, etc, that had other people enslaved in colonies up until the sixties. 2+ billion people had their countries managed by foreigners, and their fellow countrymen tortured and executed when asking freedom (and sometimes, just killed for fun). http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-... http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-holocausts/ http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-hol... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/inside-frances-secret-war-396062.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/inside-france... http://www.theplaidzebra.com/human-zoos-one-europes-shameful-secrets-ended-50s/ http://www.theplaidzebra.com/human-zoos-one-europes-shameful... Heck, even in Paris itself, the French police famously killed over 200 Algerians marching for their country's freedom in a single day in 1961 -- and it took them 40+ years, after all officials were dead or too old, to finally admit it and ask for an apology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 These countries also thought that they should have a say as to whether a remote country should have this or that president or regime -- to the point of toppling legitimate regimes, bombing those countries, coming to assist one party or another in a civil war, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta... There have been over 2 million victims of those interventions in the last 10 years alone. Every despicable hit by muslim terrorists (and we all agree its despicable) was met with 4-5 orders of magnitude many more innocent victims on those countries. If some muslim country managed to harm 1/100 that number of, say, Texans, where would the percentages of "tolerance" and "acceptance" towards them go? We should condemn all violence -- not forgive the one that has better PR and is done by cool looking people who have the same background as us.
- fauigerzigerk 11y ago
  >There have been over 2 million victims of those interventions in the last 10 years alone I was comparing social attitudes not counting casualties of armed conflict and its repercussions. Comparing these two things quantitatively makes very little sense. The conservative advocates of Sharia who execute people for their sexual orientation are executing people who live right now in those countries. They don't execute European or American racists from the 1950s and they don't do it as an act of revenge for the Iraq war (that I strongly opposed by the way)
hyperpape 11y ago
You may say "I don't want to send them back to Syria" but there are only two real choices: to take your share of refugees and work with other countries to get them to do the same, or to wash your hands of them and leave them to the wolves. There was a boat of Jewish refugees that Roosevelt hoped would be accepted to Cuba but whom the United States was unwilling to accept. 254 of those refugees ended up murdered in the Holocaust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis#.22Voyage_of_the_Damned.22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis#.22Voyage_of_the_....

jacquesm 11y ago

> And no one in Europe is advocating throwing anyone back into a war zone. Ah, you must be a bit out of touch with recent developments in NL. We're soon to have elections and it looks like we'll have Geert Wilders for prime minister, his main motto is 'close the borders', the secondary one is 'the problem is the foreigners' and the third is 'let's throw all those refugees out'. And whether it is exactly 40% or not is immaterial, the numbers are scary. http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/09/geert-wilders-party-is-the-largest-in-the-netherlands/ http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/09/geert-wilders-party-is-the-... That's 30% declared right there, another 10% undeclared would not surprise me at all.

fauigerzigerk 11y ago
>his main motto is 'close the borders' I'm not out of touch enough to have missed this opinion. But that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. We don't have borders with Syria. But you are right that I don't know specifically what that Dutch politician actually demands other than closing the borders.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  If it were up to Geert Wilders we'd be going around with a color chart in shades of brown and a burning Koran to figure out who we should kick out and who is allowed to stay.
  - alvarosm 11y ago
    And if it were up to you you'd turn your country into a third world shithole. Just a similarly bigoted fact.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
    Well if you ditch the color chart and add a burning New Testament and Chumash, I don't see the problem.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      OT3? In that bastion of critical thought called 'the Onion' they had a pretty good summary of such a solution: http://www.theonion.com/article/northern-irish-serbs-hutus-granted-homeland-in-wes-305 http://www.theonion.com/article/northern-irish-serbs-hutus-g...
- toyg 11y ago
  > that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. "In the region", you can choose whether to send them to: 1) Turkey, an increasingly-authoritarian regime which is already overflowing with millions of refugees, making money with the fanatics and holding mainstream cultural values that tend to despise people from Syria/Kurdistan/Iraq; 2) Lebanon, a country where refugees from other conflicts already account for over a third of the total population, and which is far from stable on its own (half-run by the unofficial Hezbollah militia) 3) Israel. They don't even want "their own" arabs... 4) Iraq, another war-torn country half-owned by the same petro-fanatics; 5) Iran, which is logistically very difficult (being on the other side of warzone Iraq) and, well, not great for people running from religious fanatics; 6) Jordan, another poor and unstable country already full of refugees from previous conflicts. 7) Saudi Arabia. They're the ones funding the fanatics. Enough said. 8) Egypt. Yet another dictator, vaguely more stable, as ruthless as Assad. They also have permanent Palestinian camps which have been there for decades and clearly don't want any more. 9) Palestine/Gaza or Palestine / West Bank. Let's not even go there. Ok, let's go further then: Libya? Sorry, other war. Tunisia? Another wobbly government, and so close to Europe to make it look silly. Georgia/Armenia/Azerbaijan? Dictators, guerrillas... Yemen? Other war. Oman? Same guy has been in charge for 45 years. We can go on, but tbh, it's all like that. Countries in the region are either f*ed up, autocratic regimes, or are actively sponsoring the lunatics. Decent people have nowhere to go.
johnchristopher 11y ago
I don't understand how living in Belgium I missed that (nitpick: s/president/prime-minister). But then again these are just polls. And then there needs to be a majority coalition. But it's a far cry from the Netherlands I knew in the 90's. Back on the topic: there are some really disturbing messages on social networks and in politician mouths regarding the refugees (who are called migrants here).
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Thanks for the correction, comment updated, the Dutch term is 'minister president'. And yes, the coalition is pretty much our hope right now, but Wilders is ex VVD and SP might even join (they have a lot of similar things in their programs even though they're on opposite points of the political spectrum in nl, how that happened is another story). A 'cordon sanitaire' has been discussed but it is also already being broken. The Netherlands that you knew in the 90's is dead, 25 years of divisive politics have seen to that. Yes, it is absolutely deplorable how our 'chosen leaders' are positioning themselves and how they use the Paris attacks as a fig leaf cover to do things they nominally would have nothing to do with, except now that it is politically expedient.
sgt 11y ago
I'm not in Europe, but I've heard about Geert Wilders and seen him speak in a few online videos. He doesn't actually seem to be that radical, except in terms of immigration where he seems to be taking a tough stance. But as all seemingly extremists becoming prime ministers, he'll eventually learn to see a bit more of the bigger picture and cool down if he gets in office.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  At the risk of Godwinning this thread, that's something I read in some old documents too. That time it didn't work.
  - bad_user 11y ago
    In the context of human rights and xenophobic behavior, please don't censor yourself in order to not violate some stupid Internet meme. The nazis represent an anti-pattern for society we should always remember. After all in each of us there's always potential for evil, all it takes is a capable leader to channel that potential to some common purpose that blurs our ethics.
    - escape_goat 11y ago
      The success of fascist tendencies is definitely a code smell. In a less extreme sense, any development that embraces the use of global variables bears a risk of unpredictable and potentially catastrophic outcomes. Sadly, because it is so easy to refer to global variables, they will always have a great deal of appeal for those seeking closures. </humor>
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      Ok, so let me spell it out then: Geert Wilders is seen by a surprisingly large number of people who really should know better as a 'great leader' and a 'strong man' who will lead us out of this mess. The biggest thing on 'our side' is that NL is a crappy little country and that we don't have a functioning army (or at least, not a very large one) due to budget cuts over the last couple of years. But Mr. Wilders is taking a lot of leaves out of the playbook of Mr. Hitler, who - just to remind you - was also voted into power. He's positioning himself as the solution to a problem, a problem that has been on the minds of many. The idea that once in power he won't be quite as bad is hilarious, he's been playing his cards very close to his chest, runs his 'party' as a one man show with a puppet faction backing him up in the chambers of parliament and will no doubt make at least an attempt to deliver. At a minimum his plans will set NL back about 25 years in international relations, his policies are strongly isolationist (return to the guilder, close the borders, withdraw from various treaties and so on) and his stance on freedom of religion and such will make NL the laughingstock of the EU at best and a pariah at worst. Once NL is successfully isolated from the influence of the rest of the EU I expect him to reveal his real playbook. Whatever it is it can't be much good given what we've seen to date. This is a very scared, very scary person who is pushing every emotional button available with his policies and rhetoric who has the backing of a much too large segment of the country already. If you had told me 25 years ago that this would happen in NL I would not have believed you but I'm witnessing it. This whole thing started with the murder of a guy called Pim Fortuyn, the previous populist (who at least made some sense some of the time), he would have done some damage but not enough to seriously threaten the country. The segment woken up by the voice of Fortuyn was then handily co-opted by Wilders, who is now in an excellent position to put his play-book into action. It's super scary to watch friends and even relatives succumb to this idiots words and to hear his words being echoed by people dear to you. It's like watching a re-run of Germany, ca. 1935, and then too people were saying 'Oh, it won't be that bad, he's just going to wake up when he actually has power' and we all know how that one ended. Again, fortunately, NL is a crappy little country, but don't forget that Hitler came from Austria, not from Germany to begin with, who knows what his plans are. There is a large body of similar minded people in Belgium, and a much larger one still in France led by one Marine Le Pen. You can bet they're planning some sort of collaboration (too early to call it an anschluss) once they have managed to capture some power. It's like watching the periscope of a submarine moving through a flotilla of merchant boats.
fineman 11y ago
Yeah, it's still not the rape, enslavement, and murder of everyone who believes differently. Threatening to close your border to incoming foreigners is nothing like like closing your border, enslaving locals trying to flee you, and murdering them systematically. And there's a difference between a leader being elected once on a wave of fear and the leader declaring themselves god's representative on earth - let the slaughter begin.
morgante 11y ago
> We're soon to have elections and it looks like we'll have Geert Wilders for prime minister That's incredibly depressing. I only know of Geert Wilders from the court case (it was part of a law class), but I always assumed he was some uber-fringe politician who would never get anywhere near high office. The world is entering a new period of radicalization and I'm very worried about the consequences.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Yes, it is depressing. What's even more depressing is when you walk around say a supermarket here and you're wondering to yourself which one of the 5 people waiting in line at the checkout is the closet facist. The old friendly lady? The woman with the toddler? You think you may be able to rule out the dude with the 'peace' sign around his neck, but you can't be really sure. I know it isn't me and the kid in front of me isn't of voting age yet.

DasIch 11y ago

The majority of the refugees are staying in the region they're from. It's only a tiny minority that even attempts to flee to Europe and fewer still survive that trip.

fauigerzigerk 11y ago
"Tiny" is probably no longer quite the right word, but yes, most are staying in the region. The poorest ones apparently. And to make it clear, I'm not concerned about the number of people coming to Europe. I'm concerned about the attitudes of conservative Islam, anywhere in the world.

coldtea 11y ago

>There is no 40% group of the population in Europe that holds views that are anywhere near as disgusting as that. Well, only 50+ years ago there was an over 40% population in the US that thought that blacks were inferior and shouldn't sit in the same restaurants/hotels/schools with whites. In fact it was even law in some states. Beyond that, there were about all major western countries, France, UK, Belgium, Holland, Italy, etc, that had other people enslaved in colonies up until the sixties. 2+ billion people had their countries managed by foreigners, and their fellow countrymen tortured and executed when asking freedom (and sometimes, just killed for fun). http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-... http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-holocausts/ http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-hol... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/inside-frances-secret-war-396062.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/inside-france... http://www.theplaidzebra.com/human-zoos-one-europes-shameful-secrets-ended-50s/ http://www.theplaidzebra.com/human-zoos-one-europes-shameful... Heck, even in Paris itself, the French police famously killed over 200 Algerians marching for their country's freedom in a single day in 1961 -- and it took them 40+ years, after all officials were dead or too old, to finally admit it and ask for an apology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 These countries also thought that they should have a say as to whether a remote country should have this or that president or regime -- to the point of toppling legitimate regimes, bombing those countries, coming to assist one party or another in a civil war, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta... There have been over 2 million victims of those interventions in the last 10 years alone. Every despicable hit by muslim terrorists (and we all agree its despicable) was met with 4-5 orders of magnitude many more innocent victims on those countries. If some muslim country managed to harm 1/100 that number of, say, Texans, where would the percentages of "tolerance" and "acceptance" towards them go? We should condemn all violence -- not forgive the one that has better PR and is done by cool looking people who have the same background as us.

fauigerzigerk 11y ago
>There have been over 2 million victims of those interventions in the last 10 years alone I was comparing social attitudes not counting casualties of armed conflict and its repercussions. Comparing these two things quantitatively makes very little sense. The conservative advocates of Sharia who execute people for their sexual orientation are executing people who live right now in those countries. They don't execute European or American racists from the 1950s and they don't do it as an act of revenge for the Iraq war (that I strongly opposed by the way)

hyperpape 11y ago

You may say "I don't want to send them back to Syria" but there are only two real choices: to take your share of refugees and work with other countries to get them to do the same, or to wash your hands of them and leave them to the wolves. There was a boat of Jewish refugees that Roosevelt hoped would be accepted to Cuba but whom the United States was unwilling to accept. 254 of those refugees ended up murdered in the Holocaust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis#.22Voyage_of_the_Damned.22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis#.22Voyage_of_the_....