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"A July 2014 poll by ICM Research suggested that more than one in four French youth of all creeds between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a favorable

by kbart 11y ago

"A July 2014 poll by ICM Research suggested that more than one in four French youth of all creeds between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a favorable or very favorable opinion of ISIS. Even if these estimates are high, in our own interviews with young people in the vast and soulless housing projects of the Paris banlieues we found surprisingly wide tolerance or support for ISIS among young people" Despite these astonishing numbers, it still has nothing to do with religion, right? Downvote me to hell, but if a quarter of certain group openly supports mass-killers, I have a very serious reason to be afraid of them and avoid at all cost. EDIT: formatting

vanderhosen 11y ago
You seem to be ignoring the "all creeds" portion of that quote.
- nightspirit 11y ago
  This is what you get following link in the article: An ICM poll on behalf of the Russian news agency Rossiya Segodnya tested the awareness of the group ISIS (previously known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Levant), in three European nations; Great Britain, France and Germany. The poll revealed that overall 2% and 7% say they are very favourable and somewhat favourable towards ISIS but a greater 26% and 43% are somewhat unfavourable and very unfavourable towards ISIS. Not only they didn't break it down betwene religions, but I'm not even sure how NYT themselves extracted their "1/4 youths support ISIS" claim from this data. OTOH, have a look at this link originally posted by imaginenore in some other thread: http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60 http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-ameri...
  - return0 11y ago
    This is the poll they refer to, if you scroll down to the isis question, it's 27% among french 18-24. http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/New-EU-Comb.pdf http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/New-EU-Comb.pdf
    - brohee 11y ago
      The exact French wording they used isn't mentioned sadly. IIRC is was astonishingly bad, as they used the ISIS word, that isn't used by French media, which went from EIIL (Etat Islamique en Irak et au Levant) to Daesh. It's very likely that most people that answered misidentified the faction that was talked about.
notahacker 11y ago
Bearing in mind the number of young French people who supposedly had a "favourable or very favourable" opinion of ISIS vastly exceeded the number of young French people who were Muslim, I suspect it had little to do with religion and everything to do with a particularly poorly phrased French version of the question.... The polling organisation is reputable, but the detail that they and the Russian state media organisation they conducted it for provided is scant: http://www.icmunlimited.com/media-centre/press/isis-poll-for-rossiya-segodnya http://www.icmunlimited.com/media-centre/press/isis-poll-for... Similar polls of almost-exclusively Muslim, mainly Sunni and generally anti-West Gaza have found a much more negative opinions of ISIS
return0 11y ago
"of all creeds" As you quoted yourself, this is among all creeds, not among muslims. France has larger muslim population than germany or GB that were in the same survey, yet this still does not explain the huge difference in youths actually supporting daesh. So, its fair to say that french youth in general is disillusioned. Also note that this was before charlie hebdo and the recent attack, not sure how the non-muslim french would respond now. The banlieues are often referenced , but were the terrorists from the banlieues? the whole thing seems to be orchestrated from belgium.
- fennecfoxen 11y ago
  > So, its fair to say that french youth in general is disillusioned. The French economy is moribund, growth is nil, youth unemployment rates are over 25%, and lots of them are sitting around unemployed or in dead-end jobs - while their parents hold much cushier jobs with some of the world's best labor protections (or most-notorious, depending on your perspective). It's not shocking.
  - return0 11y ago
    General disillusionment is a characteristic of the entire European south (or EE) in general. I don't think it has more to do with islamic radicalization than other kinds of radicalization though.
  - rjaco31 11y ago
    That makes you want to get a job or raise unemployment subsidies, not go kill people in the street..
    - ceejayoz 11y ago
      With 25% youth unemployment, wanting to get a job doesn't mean getting a job. People give up after a while, and the resulting desperation is dangerous.
    - prawn 11y ago
      Makes different people do different things in response. Idle hands, etc. Throw in unwelcoming locals, radical preachers in the community, stories of oppressive foreign governments on your home turf, etc and I can see how idle youths find a call to arms appealing.
RobertoG 11y ago
I had the chance to talk with a ISIS supported a few months ago. He was a young Muslim but not specially religious and he was not involved with the movement directly but agree with them. In his view, even if the citizens of western countries can enjoy freedom and a good life, the actions of their governments in other countries are not so wonderful. The word "hypocrite" was mentioned. I had some problems to refute this reasoning. I think that we can condemn terrorism and be against the instauration of caliphates without give up critical thinking. After all, that should be one of the most important Western values.
vezzy-fnord 11y ago
Some 50% of Russians have favorable opinions about Stalin. Such statistics are not in of themselves worrying, unless you have reason to believe they can't compartmentalize.
- kbart 11y ago
  For Russian neighbors (I live in one of them) such statistics, along with actions in Ukraine is very much worrying and we do everything we can to prepare for possible (even likely) Russian aggression -- increased military spending, re-introduction of conscription, lobbying for NATO high alert forces and stationary units.
brohee 11y ago
That poll was a joke. It actually polled people about ISIS, using that word, while ISIS isn't used in French at all... We use EI, EIIL or more recently Daesh. The only people who had any idea of what was talked about where those reading the English language media. My guess is that people aither thought about something else, or not wanting to be caught being ignorant stated a random opinion.
- soared 11y ago
  Source?
  - brohee 11y ago
    http://www.ami-oimc.org/news/un-sondage-affirme-que-15%25-des-fran%C3%A7ais-ont-une-'opinion-positive'-de-l'etat-islamique/ http://www.ami-oimc.org/news/un-sondage-affirme-que-15%25-de... Basically the question used two denomination for Daesh, none of which being widely used by the media... Add to that people too proud to admit their ignorance, and you have the recipe for a totally worthless poll...

by kbart 11y ago

vanderhosen 11y ago

You seem to be ignoring the "all creeds" portion of that quote.

nightspirit 11y ago
This is what you get following link in the article: An ICM poll on behalf of the Russian news agency Rossiya Segodnya tested the awareness of the group ISIS (previously known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Levant), in three European nations; Great Britain, France and Germany. The poll revealed that overall 2% and 7% say they are very favourable and somewhat favourable towards ISIS but a greater 26% and 43% are somewhat unfavourable and very unfavourable towards ISIS. Not only they didn't break it down betwene religions, but I'm not even sure how NYT themselves extracted their "1/4 youths support ISIS" claim from this data. OTOH, have a look at this link originally posted by imaginenore in some other thread: http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60 http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-ameri...
- return0 11y ago
  This is the poll they refer to, if you scroll down to the isis question, it's 27% among french 18-24. http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/New-EU-Comb.pdf http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/New-EU-Comb.pdf
  - brohee 11y ago
    The exact French wording they used isn't mentioned sadly. IIRC is was astonishingly bad, as they used the ISIS word, that isn't used by French media, which went from EIIL (Etat Islamique en Irak et au Levant) to Daesh. It's very likely that most people that answered misidentified the faction that was talked about.

notahacker 11y ago

Bearing in mind the number of young French people who supposedly had a "favourable or very favourable" opinion of ISIS vastly exceeded the number of young French people who were Muslim, I suspect it had little to do with religion and everything to do with a particularly poorly phrased French version of the question.... The polling organisation is reputable, but the detail that they and the Russian state media organisation they conducted it for provided is scant: http://www.icmunlimited.com/media-centre/press/isis-poll-for-rossiya-segodnya http://www.icmunlimited.com/media-centre/press/isis-poll-for... Similar polls of almost-exclusively Muslim, mainly Sunni and generally anti-West Gaza have found a much more negative opinions of ISIS

return0 11y ago

"of all creeds" As you quoted yourself, this is among all creeds, not among muslims. France has larger muslim population than germany or GB that were in the same survey, yet this still does not explain the huge difference in youths actually supporting daesh. So, its fair to say that french youth in general is disillusioned. Also note that this was before charlie hebdo and the recent attack, not sure how the non-muslim french would respond now. The banlieues are often referenced , but were the terrorists from the banlieues? the whole thing seems to be orchestrated from belgium.

fennecfoxen 11y ago
> So, its fair to say that french youth in general is disillusioned. The French economy is moribund, growth is nil, youth unemployment rates are over 25%, and lots of them are sitting around unemployed or in dead-end jobs - while their parents hold much cushier jobs with some of the world's best labor protections (or most-notorious, depending on your perspective). It's not shocking.
- return0 11y ago
  General disillusionment is a characteristic of the entire European south (or EE) in general. I don't think it has more to do with islamic radicalization than other kinds of radicalization though.
- rjaco31 11y ago
  That makes you want to get a job or raise unemployment subsidies, not go kill people in the street..
  - ceejayoz 11y ago
    With 25% youth unemployment, wanting to get a job doesn't mean getting a job. People give up after a while, and the resulting desperation is dangerous.
  - prawn 11y ago
    Makes different people do different things in response. Idle hands, etc. Throw in unwelcoming locals, radical preachers in the community, stories of oppressive foreign governments on your home turf, etc and I can see how idle youths find a call to arms appealing.

RobertoG 11y ago

I had the chance to talk with a ISIS supported a few months ago. He was a young Muslim but not specially religious and he was not involved with the movement directly but agree with them. In his view, even if the citizens of western countries can enjoy freedom and a good life, the actions of their governments in other countries are not so wonderful. The word "hypocrite" was mentioned. I had some problems to refute this reasoning. I think that we can condemn terrorism and be against the instauration of caliphates without give up critical thinking. After all, that should be one of the most important Western values.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago

Some 50% of Russians have favorable opinions about Stalin. Such statistics are not in of themselves worrying, unless you have reason to believe they can't compartmentalize.

kbart 11y ago
For Russian neighbors (I live in one of them) such statistics, along with actions in Ukraine is very much worrying and we do everything we can to prepare for possible (even likely) Russian aggression -- increased military spending, re-introduction of conscription, lobbying for NATO high alert forces and stationary units.

brohee 11y ago

That poll was a joke. It actually polled people about ISIS, using that word, while ISIS isn't used in French at all... We use EI, EIIL or more recently Daesh. The only people who had any idea of what was talked about where those reading the English language media. My guess is that people aither thought about something else, or not wanting to be caught being ignorant stated a random opinion.

soared 11y ago
Source?
- brohee 11y ago
  http://www.ami-oimc.org/news/un-sondage-affirme-que-15%25-des-fran%C3%A7ais-ont-une-'opinion-positive'-de-l'etat-islamique/ http://www.ami-oimc.org/news/un-sondage-affirme-que-15%25-de... Basically the question used two denomination for Daesh, none of which being widely used by the media... Add to that people too proud to admit their ignorance, and you have the recipe for a totally worthless poll...