7 ms·

> For example, there is an unconfortable number of Christians who do have a fundamentalist mindset, too (although I didn't find any exact numbers). Even fundam

> For example, there is an unconfortable number of Christians who do have a fundamentalist mindset, too (although I didn't find any exact numbers). Even fundamentalist Christians don't have divine commandments to kill apostates. Nor do atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, or Jews (well, they do, but it hasn't been in force since the Exile.) This is a false equivalency.

ivanhoe 11y ago
Well, not anymore, but Holy Inquisition did exactly that for centuries. Protestants burned witches. Buddhist, Jews or Hindus all did the same at some point. So it's not about some religions being good while others are evil, it's about narrow minded people gaining enough power at some point so that they can go with their crazy ideas unpunished. It's not a coincidence that all this started to happen with the collapse of modern Arab society and states, which unfortunately has a lot to do with US and British political ambitions.
- Amezarak 11y ago
  It's not about religions being good or evil. But different religions are different and expect their adherents to behave in certain ways. Christians, ideally, are supposed to behave like Jesus. Buddhists, ideally, are supposed to behave like Buddha. Muslims, ideally, are supposed to behave like Mohammed. These three individuals were very different. Of course, adherents aren't ideal adherents. But you can still generally expect different behavior from each set of adherents. That's now calling one set evil and one set good (now that's some cultural imperialism!), that's recognizing reality. Muslims, historically, have taken very seriously that apostasy is a serious crime punishable by death. Christians and Buddhists, not so much; it's the rare exception and not an almost-rule.
- BurningFrog 11y ago
  Right, but if you're talking about immigration policy in 2015, only people alive in 2015 are really relevant.
arca_vorago 11y ago
Funny though, how the fundamentalists christians have killed many more muslims than muslims have killed christians. I really dislike this, "but xtians are less violent than muslims because they have a mandate to kill apostates" approach, because it ignores so much of the reality. Not to mention, without diving into old/new testament theology, that there are plenty of commands to kill in the bible, even of unbeleivers (see Dueteronomy 17). I grew up very religiously christian, but that changed after I went to war in Iraq. It took me years of reading, studying, and discussion with others to pull myself out of that mental bondage, and one of the things I realized is that it is religion itself that encourages irrationality, and that is certainly no false equivalance as you claim. I see more American taliban where I live in the bible belt than I saw jihadists in Iraq. We have killed thousands upon thousands more men women and children. (Not debating justification at the moment) That is not to ignore the varying of degrees of extremism and the probability scale on which one religion produces extremists over another, especially given cultural contexts which I would consider more important than the religion itself. (See differences between wahhabi suadis and shia who live in America) That being said though, the real danger is for the west to accept the idea that this is a purely ideological war of muslim fanatics against the oh so peaceful christian (or culturally christian) west, all the time ignoring that same seed of extremism in us that mirrors our so called enemy. Until we can admit that it is religion itself that is the danger, and the irrationality it encourages, this issue will never be solved. Also, regarding France, And I may get downvoted for this, but wasnt France bombing in Syria for almost two months prior to the attack? I would be willing to bet they killed at least as many civilians as died in the Paris attack, not including military age males, but where is the outrage for the syrian people? Ill tell you the main thing I realized about terrorism, is that we create terrorists faster than we kill them, and very few of them are purely reliously motivated. I put it this way to my family and friends: I am a warrior first and foremost. If a random bomb fell on my house and killed my family, or a stray shot from an occuping nation in America killed my son, daughter, mother or wife, I can guarantee you I would be on a great warpath. If the chinese invaded America because they claimed we were a terrorist country, and kidnapped my friend, we would try to rescue him by force if necessary. If we want to reduce terrorism, the number one way is to stop fucking bombing every country in the middle east. not just that, but we need to stop propping up every dictator who has friendly policies to us and overthrowing any democratic movement that isnt friendly. We undermine the very foundational principles of America by doing so, and we should be leading by example, and not by force. That is not to say force should never be used, for Im not a pacifist and beleive in the right of self defense, but I am increasingly having a hard time beleiving self defense means bombing countries halfway around the world. I would like to have that debate with someone knowledgeable.
tokipin 11y ago
i think the key is that christianity had the historical accident of being connected to western development, so it was forced to tone down its shenanigans. a present example is how it is being forced to accept homosexuality. unlike dogma seems to claim, religion is the one that follows the morality of society, not the other way around. not that religions aren't powerful. the kinds of religion-based stupidity you see in other nations is exactly the reasons why the founders of the U.S. explicitly separated church and state.

ivanhoe 11y ago

Well, not anymore, but Holy Inquisition did exactly that for centuries. Protestants burned witches. Buddhist, Jews or Hindus all did the same at some point. So it's not about some religions being good while others are evil, it's about narrow minded people gaining enough power at some point so that they can go with their crazy ideas unpunished. It's not a coincidence that all this started to happen with the collapse of modern Arab society and states, which unfortunately has a lot to do with US and British political ambitions.

Amezarak 11y ago
It's not about religions being good or evil. But different religions are different and expect their adherents to behave in certain ways. Christians, ideally, are supposed to behave like Jesus. Buddhists, ideally, are supposed to behave like Buddha. Muslims, ideally, are supposed to behave like Mohammed. These three individuals were very different. Of course, adherents aren't ideal adherents. But you can still generally expect different behavior from each set of adherents. That's now calling one set evil and one set good (now that's some cultural imperialism!), that's recognizing reality. Muslims, historically, have taken very seriously that apostasy is a serious crime punishable by death. Christians and Buddhists, not so much; it's the rare exception and not an almost-rule.
BurningFrog 11y ago
Right, but if you're talking about immigration policy in 2015, only people alive in 2015 are really relevant.

arca_vorago 11y ago

Funny though, how the fundamentalists christians have killed many more muslims than muslims have killed christians. I really dislike this, "but xtians are less violent than muslims because they have a mandate to kill apostates" approach, because it ignores so much of the reality. Not to mention, without diving into old/new testament theology, that there are plenty of commands to kill in the bible, even of unbeleivers (see Dueteronomy 17). I grew up very religiously christian, but that changed after I went to war in Iraq. It took me years of reading, studying, and discussion with others to pull myself out of that mental bondage, and one of the things I realized is that it is religion itself that encourages irrationality, and that is certainly no false equivalance as you claim. I see more American taliban where I live in the bible belt than I saw jihadists in Iraq. We have killed thousands upon thousands more men women and children. (Not debating justification at the moment) That is not to ignore the varying of degrees of extremism and the probability scale on which one religion produces extremists over another, especially given cultural contexts which I would consider more important than the religion itself. (See differences between wahhabi suadis and shia who live in America) That being said though, the real danger is for the west to accept the idea that this is a purely ideological war of muslim fanatics against the oh so peaceful christian (or culturally christian) west, all the time ignoring that same seed of extremism in us that mirrors our so called enemy. Until we can admit that it is religion itself that is the danger, and the irrationality it encourages, this issue will never be solved. Also, regarding France, And I may get downvoted for this, but wasnt France bombing in Syria for almost two months prior to the attack? I would be willing to bet they killed at least as many civilians as died in the Paris attack, not including military age males, but where is the outrage for the syrian people? Ill tell you the main thing I realized about terrorism, is that we create terrorists faster than we kill them, and very few of them are purely reliously motivated. I put it this way to my family and friends: I am a warrior first and foremost. If a random bomb fell on my house and killed my family, or a stray shot from an occuping nation in America killed my son, daughter, mother or wife, I can guarantee you I would be on a great warpath. If the chinese invaded America because they claimed we were a terrorist country, and kidnapped my friend, we would try to rescue him by force if necessary. If we want to reduce terrorism, the number one way is to stop fucking bombing every country in the middle east. not just that, but we need to stop propping up every dictator who has friendly policies to us and overthrowing any democratic movement that isnt friendly. We undermine the very foundational principles of America by doing so, and we should be leading by example, and not by force. That is not to say force should never be used, for Im not a pacifist and beleive in the right of self defense, but I am increasingly having a hard time beleiving self defense means bombing countries halfway around the world. I would like to have that debate with someone knowledgeable.

tokipin 11y ago

i think the key is that christianity had the historical accident of being connected to western development, so it was forced to tone down its shenanigans. a present example is how it is being forced to accept homosexuality. unlike dogma seems to claim, religion is the one that follows the morality of society, not the other way around. not that religions aren't powerful. the kinds of religion-based stupidity you see in other nations is exactly the reasons why the founders of the U.S. explicitly separated church and state.