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Up until a few weeks ago I used to think that religion is just a facade, but I no longer think that is true. Religion is the center of their beliefs, and a very

by jules 11y ago

Up until a few weeks ago I used to think that religion is just a facade, but I no longer think that is true. Religion is the center of their beliefs, and a very important factor that drives their actions. When the Boston bomber says "Know you are fighting men who look into the barrel of your gun and see heaven, how can you compete with that?" he is not lying. This is what these people truly believe. They think the metaphysics of this universe works as follows. You walk into a theatre full of people with an assault rifle and start shooting people. This ensures your place in heaven next to God. Then you press the button on your suicide vest to teleport into heaven. Imagine that you were living in the Matrix but instead of a telephone, death is what lets you out of the Matrix. Furthermore, outside of the Matrix there is somebody who has been keeping score and this makes the difference between eternal bliss or eternal torture. The robots that run the Matrix have really engineered the world that way. This is what these people believe, or at least a medieval version of it. Another example is the Heaven's Gate suicide cult. Instead of being based on Islam they were based on Christianity. They though that Jesus was an alien and you can reach their UFO (= heaven) by committing suicide. And they did.

seren 11y ago
I believe it is a bit more complex. From the point of view of the bomber this is certainly true. But there are also people using their gullibility. I have read multiple times that Isis has amongst its member ex Baathist officer from Saddam, Ba'ath party which was at least originally more secular and left-leaning. I am pretty sure that some of these people are not that into the religious aspect, except as a recruiting and propaganda tool. The way I see it is that using the "Islam" brand is great way to have funds and international support/appeal. In the same way, in the sixties, you had plenty of nationalist movements all over the world that were claiming to be Communist. Sure it was also the hand of Moscow at work, but for local people, that was also a great way to secure some funding/weapons/etc from USSR. Also some of the bomber have allegedly married in Syria, possibly with children, I am not sure what would happen to their family if they defected.
- jules 11y ago
  There are certainly multiple things at play here. I think the three main ones are: 1. Religion 2. Politics 3. Personal gain For instance the politics around hating the west and hating Israel, and personal gain in sex deprived young men getting to rape women in Syria and getting a salary that's 5x as much as the average Syrian. These three parts are intertwined and can't be separated from each other. Most media focuses solely on #2, but a theory built solely around #2 does not explain the behaviour of ISIS very well, whereas a theory built around all 3 aspects fits the data very well. As for the idea that high ranking members of ISIS do not truly believe in the ideology, and they are just manipulating everyone for personal gain, it is possible but I consider it unlikely. The leader of the Heaven's Gate suicide cult also committed suicide himself along with the others. And George Bush is himself a true Christian believer. I consider it unlikely that ISIS is an exception. It is interesting that the only people equipped to intuitively understand the sincerity of the metaphysical beliefs of a suicide bomber are those who are or were in a cult or fundamentalist religion. For instance Megan Phelps-Roper who left the Westboro Baptist Church does understand this.
malka 11y ago
> "Know you are fighting men who look into the barrel of your gun and see heaven, how can you compete with that?" Do not give them death them. Give them suffering for years and years without the release of death. Let's see how they enjoy that.
- jules 11y ago
  I agree but in a different way. We should try to capture terrorists and put them in prison for life, and let Imams and psychologists work on them to convince them that what they did is wrong. To their fellow terrorists this means that they are now going to hell instead of heaven, because according to them the only way into heaven is by their cult ideology. That is what they fear most. The only deterrent is the possibility of hell, not the possibility of death.
  - malka 11y ago
    ah true. I might have been too violent in my previous post. Sorry about that. wishing the death of another human being, no matter how horrible we consider him, should not happen.

by jules 11y ago

seren 11y ago

I believe it is a bit more complex. From the point of view of the bomber this is certainly true. But there are also people using their gullibility. I have read multiple times that Isis has amongst its member ex Baathist officer from Saddam, Ba'ath party which was at least originally more secular and left-leaning. I am pretty sure that some of these people are not that into the religious aspect, except as a recruiting and propaganda tool. The way I see it is that using the "Islam" brand is great way to have funds and international support/appeal. In the same way, in the sixties, you had plenty of nationalist movements all over the world that were claiming to be Communist. Sure it was also the hand of Moscow at work, but for local people, that was also a great way to secure some funding/weapons/etc from USSR. Also some of the bomber have allegedly married in Syria, possibly with children, I am not sure what would happen to their family if they defected.

jules 11y ago
There are certainly multiple things at play here. I think the three main ones are: 1. Religion 2. Politics 3. Personal gain For instance the politics around hating the west and hating Israel, and personal gain in sex deprived young men getting to rape women in Syria and getting a salary that's 5x as much as the average Syrian. These three parts are intertwined and can't be separated from each other. Most media focuses solely on #2, but a theory built solely around #2 does not explain the behaviour of ISIS very well, whereas a theory built around all 3 aspects fits the data very well. As for the idea that high ranking members of ISIS do not truly believe in the ideology, and they are just manipulating everyone for personal gain, it is possible but I consider it unlikely. The leader of the Heaven's Gate suicide cult also committed suicide himself along with the others. And George Bush is himself a true Christian believer. I consider it unlikely that ISIS is an exception. It is interesting that the only people equipped to intuitively understand the sincerity of the metaphysical beliefs of a suicide bomber are those who are or were in a cult or fundamentalist religion. For instance Megan Phelps-Roper who left the Westboro Baptist Church does understand this.

malka 11y ago

> "Know you are fighting men who look into the barrel of your gun and see heaven, how can you compete with that?" Do not give them death them. Give them suffering for years and years without the release of death. Let's see how they enjoy that.

jules 11y ago
I agree but in a different way. We should try to capture terrorists and put them in prison for life, and let Imams and psychologists work on them to convince them that what they did is wrong. To their fellow terrorists this means that they are now going to hell instead of heaven, because according to them the only way into heaven is by their cult ideology. That is what they fear most. The only deterrent is the possibility of hell, not the possibility of death.
- malka 11y ago
  ah true. I might have been too violent in my previous post. Sorry about that. wishing the death of another human being, no matter how horrible we consider him, should not happen.